Russell: [00:00:02] Welcome back to Contributors. Today we're bringing the CAAT Pension Plans CEO to the show, Derek Dobson. For those of you keeping track, that is my boss. This episode will still fit our formula as I'll talk to Derek about his background, the problems the CAAT is solving and his advice for how business leaders can win the war for talent. I'm confident you'll walk away with a new lens on retirement savings and the future of Canada, as well as how and why employers are joining pension plans to enhance their bottom line. The business case that Derek makes is incredible. After this episode, you'll learn the looming challenge of retirement savings in Canada and the opportunity for our economy. As well, you'll learn some of the ways that employers are improving their bottom line by joining a defined benefit pension plan. You'll also hear how organizations like CAAT are transforming and innovating pensions and what that could mean for you. Finally, Derek's going to share his secret sauce behind creating a new category in the retirement saving space. I'm so excited to bring you into this conversation. Let's dive in. Welcome to Contributors, Derek. 

Derek: [00:01:16] Thanks, Russell. It's great to be here. 

Russell: [00:01:17] It's great to have you. So the first question we often ask us is how has your pandemic been? So how is yours been? 

Derek: [00:01:25] My pandemic has revealed a lot of new things for me. I didn't realize I could work remotely and then to actually be more productive. Maybe that's just cutting down the commute a little bit, which I'm not missing, especially in the winter. But of course, there's the downsides of not being able to see friends and family as often as you want, but I always try and look at the glass half full. 

Russell: [00:01:46] At first, it was really hard not to go into work, and now I think it might be hard to go back to work. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background? 

Derek: [00:01:56] Sure. I've been, first of all, the CEO of CAAT for four thousand six hundred and seventy one days. I counted this morning and I've been in the pension and benefits industry for more than 30 years. If we go way back, you'll look at my degree was the natural sciences, which is really just a fancy way of saying applied mathematics, risk management, et cetera. So that's that's where I am. But if you're talking about me, I'm like most senior executives. I spend my time on strategy, people, culture, relationships, problem solving but more recently, and maybe this is part of the pandemic innovating and finding ways to innovate for the new future. 

Russell: [00:02:40] That's great now because you and I work together, I know something else about you, which is that you've grown up in Toronto in a diverse neighborhood. So I'm wondering, how do you think that has shaped your approach as a leader? 

Derek: [00:02:53] I think the formative years for me were in that period of maybe grade six to grade 12, and the neighborhood I lived in was a low income neighborhood. Very, very diverse. For example, my best friend was Jamaican. My other best friend was from the Philippines. We hung out together all the time with their families. I ate some foods that I'd be surprised that really influenced my perspective on the diversity of needs of different Canadians, but also recognizing the importance of income security because we didn't have a lot. In fact, for a couple of years, we had no car. I wear the same pair of pants to my high school, which was a Catholic boys high school. Every single day for weeks on end, I mean, clearly put them in the wash. But when you don't have a lot growing up, I think you understand the value of money and the importance of income security. 

Russell: [00:03:51] We had a time with that, a car, and I remember as well a time where we're probably about five years we didn't have a dishwasher. 

Derek: [00:03:59] Yeah.

Russell: [00:04:00] I learned a lot.

Derek: [00:04:01] I was I. I was the dishwasher, Russell. 

Russell: [00:04:03] So this is a good time to pivot to our kind of next question, which is what's CAAT? 

Derek: [00:04:11] Yeah, it's it's a question we get asked a lot because we're an emerging brand in the retirement space in Canada, but if I was to summarize it, I would say we're probably the most innovative, one of the most sustainable and efficient workplace pension plans available in Canada today. In fact, it was pretty proud. In 2018, we won an International Pension Innovation Award, which is hard to come by. So not only are innovators in Canada, but innovators from a worldwide perspective. Also last year, we recognized as one of the fastest growing pension plans. 

Russell: [00:04:48] So let's talk a little bit about the great resignation. Other guests that we've had on the podcast have talked about this and specifically what they've talked about as a new pressure on employers to improve the work experience so workplaces, but also workplace benefits. Have you heard about this? 

Derek: [00:05:06] Absolutely. Throughout my network with CEOs and CHRs across Canada, it's hard even to start a conversation without talking about the great resignation, or some call it the great contemplation because you might not have experienced people leaving, but there's that intent to leave organizations and other guests. And I don't know if it was our guests on one of our podcast calling it the great rethink. Regardless of that label, you put on it, people are talking about this, and it's important. As I said, my background is in applied mathematics, thinking about the future and saying, OK, what do we do today? Need to do it today to influence the future? And a lot of my counterparts, I would say to them, in reference to the great resignation as living in the past of what worked in the past is very dangerous. This is true for you and me, Russell, as individuals. But it's even more true for leaders in organizations. In fact, just last night, I read three truths that I hold belief, but Hub International put out a 2022 outlook, and it really summarized it really well. So I'm going to share that with you. So, number one, pandemic will make employers improve their retirement plans. I absolutely agree. It's a case in point 70 percent of employees would give up a raise in favor of a workplace pension plan or a better workplace pension plan, and this is true regardless of income level, industry, gender. I don't know if you're seeing that on your team, you have a pretty diverse team. Russell, are you seeing pensions being more relevant to your group? 

Russell: [00:06:43] I think what I see from my team is that they value pensions. I mean, we have people at all kind of ages and life stages, so sometimes the younger employees don't necessarily see the same immediate need for a pension, but they actually like the metaphorical value of a pension because what a pension says to them is, you're investing in me and my career long term. 

Derek: [00:07:09] Absolutely. And that's what I'm hearing from leaders, from people and going back to that hub piece, I'm going to. Say that the most important one discussion that I'm having with leaders is retirement plans will are absolutely vital for recruitment and retention, even though we don't think about our future self that often. It's there's something innate in our bodies that know, we should be doing something and then well, let me talk about a couple of the numbers. As you know, I'm a numbers guy. So I look across all income levels. Seventy seven percent of Canadians say that employers have a responsibility to offer them a pension plan in the workplace and to look towards making sure they have adequate income in retirement. So this isn't good luck, do it yourself type of situation. Employers are saying no, you have a role. And surprisingly to me, at least 70 percent of employers agree they have a role. So this is a sea change in the last 10 years for me, where it was really good luck on your own. We're just going to pay you. And now it's this concept of wellness, which is critical to almost every organization if they want to recruit and retain in the last piece, the business case is so strong. So this study that I that I read last night showed 64 percent of business owners, the majority say labor shortages are already inhibiting their business growth. So it's not a future problem, it's a today problem. 

Russell: [00:08:45] When I first started working at CAAT, I would tell people what I did and the responses that I got were really interesting. The thing that I heard most frequently was, Oh, DB defined benefit pensions aren't those dead. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about some of the common misperceptions that you've heard around DB pensions. I think many people, when they think of them, think of in-house plans that are owned and operated and administered by a single employer, and they worry about, you know, a serious candidate type situation. 

Derek: [00:09:17] Yeah, this is this is one of the major either door closers or door openers is really understanding what modern defined benefit pension plans are, and that's how we see CAAT. And what what I mean by that is you're taking all the great benefits that employees want, which is predictable, secure, well-governed lifetime pensions. So that's modern defined benefit. That's what do we give our employees. Well, you're going to say, well, it's the same as traditional defined benefit plan. So let me get to your question. What's modern about us is that we provide it at a fixed cost for the employer. So it's the same accounting as an RRSP, as a DC plan. I'm really trying to work within the industry to remove these labels of defined benefit because it comes with baggage. I would 100 percent agree with you, Russell, that they a lot of CFOs minds are CEOs minds or boards minds are going to go to sears or balance sheet volatility or high risk. And that is, we've got to throw that out the window. That is traditional single employer DB plans with defined benefit as a concept of really saying, hey, lifetime secure, predictable retirement income for life that is more relevant today than a husband for over a generation. But it's that modern piece which is so critical. It's now it can actually be a win win where it's fixed costs for employers, affordable for employers. They pick how much they want to put into the pension plan, but it's delivering all those value propositions for employees so that that is the DB of today. 

Russell: [00:11:04] So in your role, you have conversations with leaders across Canada. And I think we know some of the misperceptions around DB. But what people get right about DB. So when you're meeting with leaders or when they call you about the CAAT plan, what are the things that they get correct around what CAAT has to offer? 

Derek: [00:11:25] They know traditionally most of them know that it is better for recruitment, better for retention, better for engagement, better for productivity, better for employee wellness, so they know that even traditional DB ticks all those boxes. But the calculus in the past has been even though with all those benefits, I cannot stomach the volatility or the risk that I take of offering my own defined benefit plan in my workplace. So that's what they recognize if they recognize the benefits of DB. And so it's really eye-opening for them of saying, Oh, I can get all of that still and be fixed cost. This sounds too good to be true, but it is, and we've gone through tremendous amounts of due diligence with very large companies, very sophisticated companies with lawyers, actuaries, accountants and every time they've decided to join our pension plan it really is true. You can have the best of both worlds, fixed cost and all those benefits of DB. 

Russell: [00:12:33] So there's a looming challenge in Canada today. Can you talk a little bit about that for us? 

Derek: [00:12:39] It's something I spend a lot of time on. So beyond just running the pension plan, I'm I'm trying to make Canada stronger and better. So I spent a lot of time with different committees across Canada, policymakers, et cetera, trying to talk about Canada's retirement ecosystem and how it fits in with the aging demographics that we have in Canada. So I'm already sort of giving away Russell the main points. We have, for example, where we sit in Ontario today, have roughly two million Ontarians over the age of 65 and less than one generation that's going to go up to 4.2 million Ontarians. So there is a big shift in population demographics. And I don't know about your parents, Russell, but my parents, they're there, are needing more health care than they did when they were in their 40s and 50s. So again, I have a method. We've got more people in the later stages of life than the more expensive stages of life. We have this great health care system in Canada, which is fundamental from my perspective to our culture, keeping our people out of poverty, which we see in other countries. So this is a big challenge for Canada that I see is trying to keep our culture and our values, but make it affordable and fundamentally a healthy, deferred pension tax base and people having security and retirement. They're all very, very positive correlations. I mean, when when I think about individuals, I think about healthy retirees and how it helps Canada, as I mentioned the strong deferred tax base. There's some companies who are setting up retirement homes, they will go to communities where they have a lot of defined benefit retirees because they know they can afford to do that from a health care perspective. I think the average Canadian would be surprised that long term care on average is about 33,000 dollars per year. Does that surprise you, Russell? 

Russell: [00:14:48] Yeah, I would think that it would be more, actually. 

Derek: [00:14:52] Yeah, but maybe that's a semi-private room. I would much prefer to have a private room, but I think people have underestimated how expensive retirement can be in an aging society. But let's get back to Canada. There's lots of studies that show if you have a good pension income, you're going to have less reliance on social programs. Let's say in Canada, a billion dollars a year, which can be redirected somewhere else. We recently participated in a study where pensions are an economic engine in most communities, whether it be urban or rural. So every dollar of pension going out is actually generating a dollar sixty two in economic activity. So it is an economic engine for Canada and those that's like the economic value of pensions are so clear to me. But what I'm more focused on recently is the social value of pensions. Was what does it do to communities, to volunteerism, to people feeling happy? And they're all very positive correlations again. This is really going to make Canada the place we want to live in, the place we want to retire. So it's good for individuals clearly, it's good for employers and businesses, but it's also good for Canada. 

Russell: [00:16:07] Absolutely. That's a great point. I think one of the things that really resonated with me as I read and learn more about pensions is there's so much there's such a kind of loud chorus of voices around. We need to buy local, especially as a result of the pandemic. We need to support Canadian business and buy local and pension dollars, our dollars that are spent locally. 

Derek: [00:16:30] And the studies point that they don't have the stats at the tip of my fingers, but I think it's over 90 percent of dollars are spent locally, so that money stays in the economy and grows Canadians future. 

Russell: [00:16:44] I know this is clearly something you're very, very passionate about, Derek, and I've seen that this is something that you write about that you speak about. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more around retirement income inequality. How did we end up in a place where we have so many individuals that have this lifetime retirement income and then a larger group that doesn't? 

Derek: [00:17:09] Yeah, that is a passion of mine. As you very articulated Russell and probably comes from our personal perspective. I shared with you earlier how I grew up, but as I see my friends and family, I see those who have security, income security and retirement, they're able to do more for, for themselves and for others. And then there's this trend where that generation so I'll call that my dad's generation, where maybe over half the private sector had a defined benefit plan at work, so they had a paycheck for life in retirement. That's really what provides income security for people, a paycheck for life. So he was able to go out and spend every pension, check on a new set of golf clubs or whatever he wanted to do, but he knew a new check was coming, coming in and I compare that to other people. Let's take the same generation for now. So my stepdad, Don, he ran his own business. He saved wisely. But he ran out of money at age 80, and he ended up living until age 92. These are the haves and the have nots of the difference between retirement income, security and not retirement income security. So, so the challenges we have is that that generation that had 50 percent of the people have it. So my dad had one, my stepdad didn't. The next generation, our generation, 90 percent of people do not have a defined benefit plan in the private sector. What are we going to do as a country with what I'm calling the lost generation, the lost pension generation? But even though I'm maybe painting a little bit of a black cloud? It's not too late. People who have some investments can make them go farther, so that's really what CAAT's trying to do through our advocacy, through our efforts through working for others is how do we take what we have, the conditions we have and make it more efficient.  And then I'll throw a starter for the audience. So a plan like CAAT can deliver twice that pension per dollar contributed compared to a defined contribution or an RRSP account. So I'm all about let's find efficiencies, not spending more. Spending more would be good too, but we have current things we have to pay for. But just taking what we're spending today and making it more efficient and effective and making it last a lifetime. Boy, when our lives are, be better in Canada, if we had that twice the efficiency. 

Russell: [00:19:48] Derek has made one thing really clear, retirement security impacts Canadians as individuals, but it also impacts Canada overall, our businesses, our economy, our way of life and our future. He also just hit on a point that's the biggest fear Canadians have around this topic, which is running out of money in retirement. That's terrifying. And to Derek's point, we're not considering the impact around this enough, especially in 2022 post-pandemic. Now I work in the pension industry, so these conversations resonate a lot with me. But what I want to reiterate for our listeners today is the full spectrum of this problem and opportunity. Yes, as Canadians, we face large scary issues around retirement savings and security. But I think what we'll continue to hear from Derek is there's so many more opportunities than there are problems. Let's hear from Derek on the future for Canada regarding retirement security, and let's learn some tangible takeaways for the C-suite. So in your view, what happens, Derek, if Canada's unable to solve this problem? 

Derek: [00:21:02] I mean, the math is dark, but it's it's pretty simple. We'll have more people in retirement with less relying more on social programs and health care. I have to think that's could impact our our tax system, whether it's personal taxes or employer taxes. And could that spiral into Canada being less competitive on the world stage? So I don't want to spend too much time in that future, Russell. So that's why we're spending all of our time trying to create a better future. But there are. As I said before, the business case is so strong for this, so we're really trying to raise awareness that you can do better without increasing any cost. And it's actually less risky as well. 

Russell: [00:21:49] So then I'll ask you the inverse. What's the upside? Canada is able to solve this problem. What does that mean for our country? 

Derek: [00:21:58] Quite simply, a better standard of living and more economic productivity. We can compete on the world stage. My oldest son is an engineer. You could take a job anywhere in the world. I want Canada to be competitive so he can work at home, and I think we can offer those types of opportunities to more Canadians. I'm a big family man. I'd like to have my family closer, but I also recognize my kids need to find their own way and have a good standard of living, so the parents that I talk where we go may long weekend, every year we go camping. Same group. For the last dozen years, we all have kids roughly the same age. And that's the upside Russell is actually providing them a Canada where they can be successful. 

Russell: [00:22:47] That's a great point, I think as we go back to topics like the great resignation and the global race for talent. We are so much further along in that race if we just don't lose talent. Canada does such a good job recruiting amazing people from around the world. And if we continue to do that and just also hold on to our own, we we would have all the advantages. 

Derek: [00:23:15] That is so true. And I don't think people think about pensions being a cornerstone of that, but everything I know, everything I've learned, everything I believe, all my conversations that I've had, pensions are an integral part of Canada's future. 

Russell: [00:23:33] You spoke eloquently about the social impact of pensions, and I know you so I know that this is a topic that you feel really passionately about. But I think we need to talk a little bit about the perspective of an employer so contributors is a podcast for Canadian business leaders, and many are listening today and they may be thinking to themselves, love what you have to say about the social impact of pensions. But ultimately, I have a fiduciary duty to my shareholders, and that's that's where I need to focus. Can you make an argument that pensions are good for business Derek, are they? 

Derek: [00:24:12] Absolutely. There's not a business that I've run into that pensions and improved workplace pension plan wouldn't be their bottom line objectives. So some of the employers I'm working with, our definitely from our focused on doing better for their employees, improving their wellness, which will end up in being more productive, more likely to stay. I saw a stat recently from a study that showed if you're worried about retirement, it's the equivalent of 16 days of lost productivity. So there's a bottom line impact there. There's a corporate social responsibility impact. There's a positive branding impact by making sure your employees not only are less stressed today, but you're not creating pensioners living in poverty. That can never be good, good for your brand. In a couple of the stats that we share with them, lawyers, for example, is when employees are given the chance to opine, do they want to join CAAT? We have a 97 percent endorsement rate. Just think about how complex pensions are. And change is difficult for people, but 97 percent of people voted in favor of change to get access to a better pension plan. The stats from a for those employers that have union relationships. Just think about the good well or the soft landing of keeping or returning to a defined benefit pension plan. We've had a 100 percent endorsement. We have relationships with 15 different unions. We're supporting DBplus a couple of other things. Lots of studies show lower severance costs, getting rid of fiduciary risks and the potential for lawsuits if you're picking an investment lineup in the DC plan, the lack of governance time, not having to invest in systems and technology to help people figure out retirement. These are the things I'm hearing from leaders is I want to focus on my core business. It's never been more important for me to focus on my core business. I'm going to outsource my pension risk management business to somebody we can trust and CAAT being a not for profit trust fund that's been around since 1967. We're ticking all the boxes. 

Russell: [00:26:38] Let's pivot to talk a little bit about financial wellness. So financial wellness is something that we've heard a lot about on this show, and we've had guests on the show that really have talked about this in the role of employers around financial wellness in the workplace. What do you see that role as? 

Derek: [00:26:57] I spent a lot of time on financial wellness in my career, speaking at various events and doing some research, working with some industry experts, and I believe in financial literacy in and of itself in financial wellness. I think these are great things. But I would say our energies should be focused on where we can actually make a difference, where do it yourself can actually make people better off. So that's understanding credit cards, budgeting things of that nature. And this is where I'll diverge from some of my peers in the industry. Pension plans are not really set up for a do it yourself. It's not better. We talked previously about efficiency. There's no way an individual can get to the same efficiency as a large institutional, sophisticated investor. With 75,000 members across 20 employers, it's just not possible to do. I mean, they are the example that I've used with some of my friends is think about a car. If you're building your own car from parts, it's going to cost you at least twice as much. Not to mention the stress and risk, and I'm not getting in that car. It's not gone through the ride quality control such but just because I can, I rotate my own tires and replace mufflers. Clearly, I can put gas in winter washer fluid in my car, but I'm not an expert. But because we have savings accounts, so many Canadians think they're the experts, but they don't know really what risk they're taking. 

Russell: [00:28:30] That's a hilarious analogy, Derek. Have you seen the episode of The Simpsons, where Homer designed his own car? 

Derek: [00:28:37] I loved that. I loved the bubble, and since I have three sons and they all played hockey, sometimes I could have used that separation bubble not only for the sound, but off with the hockey smell. On the Financial Literacy Fund, I was amazed. So in 2020, the Ontario Securities Commission found that only one in five investors, not one in five Canadians, one in five investors could only answer five really basic financial literacy questions. This was unbelievable. If we're if our audience is really big employer executives, I bet you that 100 percent of them could answer those questions. But that's not why pension plans are designed. Pension plans are designed for those 80 percent of people who can't answer those five basic financial literacy questions. Then there was a follow up survey that was in 2020. And then there's a follow up survey where there are only three basic questions and less than half of them could answer those questions. So financial literacy is not going to solve the problem from a pension perspective. It'll help us all from a, as I said, budgeting perspective, but we really do need strong institutions like CAAT who don't have a profit motive, well-governed, well-established, high performing. This is how we make retirement better for Canadians. 

Russell: [00:30:03] I think even if you were in that group, that can answer those three questions, those five questions about financial literacy, that is not to say that you can outperform the market. That is not to say that you're a financial expert that can beat people who live and breathe this, who have gone to school for this. And I think that's one of the big misconceptions that I've seen is people believe if they have a little bit of knowledge that they can, you know, they can pick the stocks, they're going to go straight to the Moon, game stop. And in my mind, that is not financial literacy. That's gambling. 

Derek: [00:30:42] Absolutely. You hear about the winners, you don't hear about the losers. So that is a challenge. And and sometimes our work has with key decision makers and they are typically a little bit more savvy on the investment side. But even as we've articulated Russell, even very sophisticated people are can outperform. We can keep international balanced portfolio going for 70 years as individuals, you should probably be thinking about about de-risking. And I'd also like to think about that average employee, which is really that goal around retention and attraction employee engagement. I saw a survey recently that showed people with incomes over 100,000 because they built up enough assets, they can take volatility so it doesn't stress them out because they know I can wait for the market to recover, et cetera. When you look at under 100,000, like half the workers can't take any volatility. So they're they're really pushed down lower into those lower performing asset classes. And again, that's why CAAT can deliver double or triple. It's because we're just able to pool and we have that expertize to make things happen. So that's a big point for senior executives. Put yourself in the shoes of your average employee of who you're trying to attract and retain and their stress, their risk tolerance is completely different than yours. 

Russell: [00:32:14] Let's talk a little bit about flexibility. One of the things that we've heard with guests and Contributors is there is more of a demand than ever for flexibility in terms of workplace benefits, but also flexibility in terms of how the workplace works. What's CAAT doing to increase flexibility for your members and participating employers? 

Derek: [00:32:37] In a nutshell, we're listening. Traditional defined benefit plans worked really well for somebody who joined at 25, stayed with the same employer for 35 years and retired. That is not the state of most employees today and most employers today. There's a lot of disruption that can happen, a lot of workforce mobility. So we've done a lot of listening. Less to the groups who have actually joined the plan because clearly our product and our story and the value proposition appealed to them. So I have been meeting more with the people who are hesitant about joining the what's stopping you because they've articulated this attraction retention, wellness, low risk objectives. And really, they're saying, Well, I want to give my employees more flexibility in determining what contribution rates they can afford. So CAAT listened. We launched at the beginning of this year as an example, something we call DBplus with contribution choice. It actually allows members to have control over how much income or contributions they want to put into the plan. The employers match those contributions. In fact, some employers now are trying to sweeten the pot and do more than matching those contributions. So that's the type of flexibility we're having. We're allowing members to choose their contribution rate within the band that employers say they're willing to contribute. And then we're letting employers choose a matching or better type of opportunity for them. And this is really making more people consider CAAT, because we are just listening. 

Russell: [00:34:15] The show is called Contributors and we tell the stories of organizations that are making Canada better. How do you see that CAAT is aspiring to make Canada better? 

Derek: [00:34:27] We're trying to bring the sweet spot where it's a win win win situation, win for employees, a win for employers and a win for Canada. It's fairly easy, from my perspective. As a not for profit, with all of our staff being straight salary, we're in it for the right reasons, Russell. So we're just trying to leverage our expertize and our access to make employers be better not only for themselves more profitable, more successful, more sustainable, but also those same words for employees and individual Canadians make them less stressed, more successful and have financial security in retirement. Well, and in fact, the financial security just like planning for a vacation. A lot of the benefits you get from a vacation are actually before you take that vacation. And that's true when you know you have financial security in retirement. You actually see those benefits today. 

Russell: [00:35:27] Are there benefits around addressing inequality that can be solved through a great defined benefit pension? 

Derek: [00:35:36] Absolutely. A good pension plan, really as agnostic. It does well for everybody, regardless of your gender, regardless of your income level, regardless of how many jobs you have. That's really the problem that CAAT is trying to solve, is trying to think about the future, the future type of workforce is we're going to have, the amount of mobility we're going to have, the amount of job changes we're going to have and really simplify that for people. I mean, our motto is really to make CAAT simple, valuable and secure for as many Canadians as possible. And from an equality lens, this defined benefit, pension plans or what I would prefer to call them lifetime retirement income plans really help a broad swath of different outcomes. We know, for example, that that that women will live longer. Well, this is a lifetime pension. So this brings equality or equity across gender. And we know that the lower pay versus the higher pay. We talk about financial literacy or being able to tolerate risk. Defined benefit, our lifetime retirement income plans provide the same value per contribution dollar regardless of where you are on the income stream. So I think equality can be achieved through a good workplace pension plan. 

Russell: [00:37:13] What are some of the results that you've seen from employees, from employers who have joined the plan since you've opened it up? 

Derek: [00:37:23] The response has been amazing. Again, there's always education when it comes to thinking about retirement in general, but I would say at the 35 minute mark, people realize a light goes off and says, this is really good, this is good for me, this is good for my employees. So I think the reaction has been overwhelming. And I think back to where is the interest coming from? Half of our interest is coming from CEOs and CHROs. We're trying to have it for their business or better for their employees, and half the interest is actually coming from members, whether that be union or employee groups. So, you know, you have a good solution when your business is being driven by both sides of the employment spectrum, the employers and the employees. And it's kind of weird and maybe a little bit uncomfortable for me sometimes. But when you're getting hugs from a CFO for solving a problem at a very affordable way and retaining helping them retain employees so they're not closing down where the bad CFO closing down. A really good retirement income plan at work. You've actually solved a real problem, so I think there's great excitement. And I'm amazed, Russell, when we go out and ask for some quotes on the press releases. The outpouring of how we've helped them solve their problem, whether it's to make them an employer of choice, whether it's improving their wellness, whether it's solving an issue that they've been trying to solve for over a decade. The feedback has been tremendous. What I draw people's attention is, is really that difference is where we were in 2009, when I joined 37 people, one product, 3.8 billion in assets, 24 participating employers, all from one industry, the college sector in Ontario. But today we've blown past past 300 people. We're growing about 30 percent per year on average. We're at the 18 billion mark, serving over 200 employers, 11 different industries, multiple products. So CAAT a decade ago and CAAT today are completely different. 

Russell: [00:39:55] In preparation for today's recording, I talked to friends and colleagues, mostly that were not at CAAT and said, You know, what would you ask, Derek? And one of the most interesting things I heard was, Well, in my mind, Derek did something really interesting, really innovative, which is he took the pension space, which is famously conservative. And not only did did kind of create a new product, you created a new product category. So I think what some of our listeners might want to know is, how did you do that? How can they bring a similar innovation to whatever it is they're doing, whatever industry they're in? 

Derek: [00:40:34] When I think about visioning exercises, I tend to place myself 20 years into the future. And then I tend to ignore all the rules, not to say I'm a rule breaker, but I sort of put the constraints to the side, and I think I've learned that from other leaders who I respect and have connected with over the years is really think about an unconstrained world. And how do you really solve that problem and then work backwards and saying, OK, who do I need to work with partner with? How much patience do I need to have to systematically work towards that longer term goal? So that would be my advice for some employers who have that longer-term vision in mind as first work in an unconstrained world and then find the right partners to make those incremental changes. 

Russell: [00:41:31] So if I'm a Canadian employer who is listen to the show and I think, you know, some of this DBplus CAAT stuff sounds interesting to me, but I'm not entirely sure that I'm ready or I'm in a position to do so. How do I find out more? 

Derek: [00:41:48] They can call me. I'm a I'm a I'm a pretty accessible person. I love solving problems, as you're aware. But any Google search of DBplus or CAAT pension plan is just going to point you in the right direction. We have an amazing pension solutions team who were there again. No bonus, no commission. They're there to educate. But I think it starts with an introduction, a conversation, there's no high pressure sales tactics here. We are in the problem solving business. So that's that's where I would start is just having a conversation and most of the employers who have joined it started off with a five 10 minute conversation that leads to a half an hour conversation that leads to introducing them to the CFO or the CHRO. And it goes from there. It's a pretty straightforward process and we are. My goal is to make it as absolutely simple and painless as possible. 

Russell: [00:42:52] Derek made it really clear today you don't have to fear defined benefit pension plans if they're packaged in a design like DBplus. There's flexibility, but rates remain fixed for you. As an employer they will let you minimize risk, increase employee productivity and track Canada's best talent. I hope you've been able to see some of the misconceptions around defined benefit pension plans. There are no longer in-house single employer plans like Sears Canada. Instead, jointly sponsored pension plans like CAAT or DBplus are the most sustainable in the long term because they forced the plan to consider a win win perspective. What's in it for employees, but also what's in it for employers. If you'd like to learn more, Derek is very active on LinkedIn. You can look him up at Derek W. Dobson. You can also visit PowerofPlus.ca and request a call with the CAAT team. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you again on March 9th.