[00:00:05] Russell Evans: This is Contributors, a show exploring how today's Canadian business leaders are building a better future for Canada. Welcome back. If you're a repeat listener, you likely know that this show is produced by my employer, the CAAT Pension Plan. And at CAAT, we offered defined benefit pensions to Canadian employers of all sizes and across all sectors. When I meet somebody new and I tell them what I do, one of the most common questions that I get is something along the lines of, all right, DB pensions, aren't those those pensions that are only available for government workers? Or sometimes I get a variation on that which is, uh, DBE pensions, those are those really good but really expensive pensions. Right? And that's super frustrating because neither of these things is true. So today we wanted to bust some of the myths around modern defined benefit pensions or modern DB pensions. And more to the point, we wanted to shed some light on the past, the present and the future of defined benefit pension plans in Canada and explore why we think they really matter to employers. Today, as we do that, you'll be hearing from four experts. One Pamela Steer, president and CEO of CPA Canada. Two the former governor of the Bank of Canada, Stephen Poloz. Three pension expert and co-founder, KPA Advisory Services, Keith Ambachtsheer. And four my colleague at CAAT Pension Plan, Paul Lai Fatt, who is a huge advocate for bringing more modern DB plans to more Canadian employers. We're going to look at one, what is it that happened that made DB pension coverage decline across Canada? Two, what is it that makes DB such an effective tool to build retirement savings and deliver lifetime retirement income? And then finally three, is there a way that we can bring defined benefit pensions back for all kinds of Canadian employers and workers? Let's get into it. Before we begin, let's set the stage a little bit. Retirement income security is one of Canada's biggest challenges, but there's also a tremendous opportunity there. One of our pension experts at CAAT, Paul Lai Fatt, director of Pension Solutions, sums up this opportunity for our country extremely well. 

[00:02:27] Paul Lai Fatt: I think of it in two buckets. I think one is coverage, the decline in pension coverage in the workforce. So question one is how do we get more people covered? I think the second bucket is once we have somebody in a pension plan, how do we design it so that it's attractive, so it's sustainable, secure, cost effective. And the two things are really tied together. I think if we get that second one right. If we can design the types of programs and systems that are attractive to workers and employers, then that'll be the catalyst we need to expand the pension coverage. We need to have designs that workers want. We need to have designs that employers want. And in doing so, that will expand the coverage for Canadians. 

[00:03:05] Russell Evans: So that's the golden opportunity for Canada. Evolving our approach to retirement income, such that defined benefit pensions can be more accessible, but also equally valuable for both employers and employees. This evolution is very much what our friend and former governor of the Bank of Canada, Steven Poloz, is talking about. Stephen is the author of The Next Age of Uncertainty, in which he says there's a growing sense of insecurity in Canada, which is likely to drive a renaissance of defined benefit pension plans. Further to that, he says that the pendulum swing back to support employees more and more, which poses the question, why are defined benefit pension the most efficient and effective way to save for retirement? Let's hear Mr. Poloz take on this. 

[00:03:54] Stephen Poloz: That's compare having a pension plan versus doing it by yourself. You know, just as, I mean, as a bit of a straw man, but my, my parents, they they did it all by themselves. You know, they had never did have a pension plan out of any kind through my dad's work, where he worked in sort of the secondary auto parts business all his life as a tool and die maker. Pretty skilled trade by the way. But anyway, when you go through that and compare that to being a participant in a pension plan, there are massive gains in scale. First of all, the most important thing that happens is your longevity risk, the risk that you're going to live long. Sounds like a good risk, but if you're going to live long, longer than your financial situation allows, then you're in a pickle. So you you have no idea how long you'll live. So you you over save for that. And so you underspend your whole life. Start just with that. And so the the efficiencies of a pool of pension money, both across longevity risk and then, of course, across market risk and the ability to compensate people in retirement because there's overlapping generations. That's a really important key with you, when there's no overlapping generation to take care of downside risk. And so all those things kind of melt away when you create a pension pool. And of course, if you run it by professionals, state of the art, then of course, you're guarding against the typical risks and you're minimizing the costs around it. So the difference between those two things is enormous. And know there's math around this where, you know, DB costs an individual 800, 900 thousand dollar more over their lifetime to build an equivalent income security in retirement than it does participating in a plan. That's a lot of money that could have been spent for a more fulfilling life while working. And so I think there's a lot of benefits from society point of view to spreading the word about pensions. 

[00:05:54] Russell Evans: Let's take a moment to talk about the history of defined benefit pensions in Canada. We brought Pamela Steer, CEO of CPA Canada, back on to Contributors to share her insights on pensions from an accounting and business perspective. Pamela does a great job of sharing where Canada stands in the pension space and what happened to make DB pension coverage decline. 

[00:06:17] Pamela Steer: So I think Canada has done very, very well from a pension perspective over many years. And we've got great governance. We have very vibrant, strong, large pension plans. So that's wonderful. What is less wonderful is that on corporate Canada, many of our pension plans that we had in the past have either closed with no replacement, or there has been a replacement with what our less efficient vehicles, more expensive, more risky, certainly to the employer, and just less effective overall. Over the last several years, a lot of Canada's largest companies have moved their defined benefit pension plans into a different kind of vehicle that has taken the risk away from the employer and really moved it into the employee. 

[00:07:12] Russell Evans: As Pamela said, a lot of companies moved away from defined benefit pension plans because of the risk, and that move was huge. Get into it between 1989 and 2019, the number of people enrolled in DB pension plans in the private sector cratered across Canada, falling from 26 percent to less than 10 percent. To look at this another way, in 1989, 86 percent of Canadian private sector workers who had a pension had a defined benefit pension, but by 2019, this number had declined to 40 percent. So what happened? 

[00:07:52] Pamela Steer: Unfortunately, I'm going to say that our accounting standards have a lot to do with that, and that doesn't make me happy. But in changing accounting rules several years ago, the risk became very evident to the employer and how the employer needed to record both the liability as well as the assets. In essence, there was a DB pension plan, the valuation or the way that they were portrayed on financial statements was quite simple and straightforward. Enter a change in accounting standards, and all of the sudden you're valuing both your liabilities and your assets on a fair market value basis. And therefore that introduces a lot of fluctuation and uncertainty. Even though the pension plan is meant to go long, long, long into the future, accounting rules are, generally speaking, predicated on fair market value or fair value. And so many pension plans, particularly back then, were what we kind of talk to, talk about a 60 40 split. So a big chunk in equities usually publicly traded equities and a big chunk in bonds. With equities, they fluctuate. The markets fluctuate all the time. Most people are somewhat aware of either the TSX or the S&P or the Dow Jones, and that fluctuates with the economic cycle. It can fluctuate wildly from month to month or quarter to quarter. But over time, we know that they do well. And their risk adjusted returns are quite, quite certain or not certain but we know they do well over time, over the long run. But financial statements, especially for publicly traded companies or for those who report quarterly they fluctuate wildly. And so there were these huge swings in a company's financial statement. It's not because of their underlying business and their operations, but because of the value of the assets and liabilities. 

[00:09:59] Russell Evans: And with what Pamela just described, this just didn't make sense to a lot of employers because what they were saying was, well, that's not my core business. And this is getting really complicated. There's a lot to manage here, and I don't necessarily want to do that. I think they were thinking, I'm in the business of manufacturing and selling whatever widgets. So I don't also want to be in the business of trying to account for all these different permutations and combinations that could exist in offering a defined benefit pension plan. So let me get out of that. I'm going to focus on my core business. I'm going to switch to something simple like a DC pension. So I asked Pamela, was this move away from defined benefit pensions good for Canadian workers? 

[00:10:46] Pamela Steer: So I'm going to say a big hard no, not good for workers. 

[00:10:51] Russell Evans: So no surprise there. The shift away from defined benefit pension plans was not a good move for workers. And as Stephen says, the power dynamic at that point was still very much on the employer side. 

[00:11:04] Stephen Poloz: And what I think happened is that the market power in that space between employers and employees shifted towards employers. So what we have then is a whole generation, more than a generation, essentially almost 50 years of people where the there was lots of workers around. And, and so but what I think is next is our baby boomers like myself are retiring. We have a gigantic retirement wave here in Canada. Like 15,000 people are retiring every month. Just just picture that, you know, all those all that human capital heading for the door. And so what happens is over the next 10 years, we're going to have more fallout and we're shifting to a relative shortage of workers. I'm talking much more profound than the shortage we experienced in the wake of the pandemic, I guess a very narrow kind of set of workers, but a much more widespread shortage. So I think what's going to happen then is the power is shifting back from the employer to the employee. And we're seeing early signs of companies being on the leading edge of that, for example, Walmart or Amazon saying, you know, we're going to pay higher than the minimum wage for our starting workers because we don't think the minimum wage is enough. That's that kind of thing. Or being flexible around work from home. I think employees are really in the driver's seat on this issue, and a lot of firms would rather they just come back five days a week. It's just easier and they think more productive. It's all changing and I think it'll change a lot more. So what I think than is happening is that their employees are going to be in position to demand more, more like they were in the 1950s and 1960s. 

[00:12:47] Russell Evans: So this idea of shifting power, or maybe rebalancing power is actually something that we're already seeing in the Canadian labor market. This is why modern, defined benefit pensions are so integral over the coming years, because they can provide that balance and value. Essentially, modern defined benefit pensions are equally valuable to both employees who are looking for more security, more certainty, more support, and to employers who want cost effective, low risk options that could help them attract and retain top talent. Before we dive into the employer value in offering defined benefit pension plans in the workplace, we wanted to learn a little bit more about the structure of these plans, mainly to understand the dichotomy between public and private pension plans. So we had the pleasure of hearing from Keith Ambachtsheer of KPA Advisory Services. Keith is known for his out-of-the-box approach to pension design, governance and investing issues. He was also named one of the most influential people in pensions by the publication, pensions and investments. Listen to Keith describe the state of pensions in Canada. 

[00:13:57] Keith Ambachtsheer: The way that I would describe it is good news and bad news. The good news is that if you look at our national systems, old age security, Canada pension plan, sustainable, well-managed. When you look at what's generally an industry called pillar two, which is the workplace pensions. When you look at our public sector, teachers, municipal workers, best in the world, a couple of big checkmarks there. When you get to the private sector pensions, it's a different story. You have a lot of fragmentation there. You don't have the kind of scale that you do on the on the public sector side. You don't have lifetime income typically as part of the pension. And, you know, they're they're more account based RRSPs, etc. etc.. So that's where we have to do and we need to do some work there. And the good news is the work is on the way. 

[00:14:58] Russell Evans: Thankfully, that work is being led by pension plans that are opening their doors to more Canadian employers. The CAAT Pension Plan is a very clear example of this, but there are other examples as well. Plans like OPTrust, University Pension Plan Group are working alongside us to make lifetime retirement income a part of more workplace benefit packages. Ultimately, there's an opportunity here, and that opportunity is to provide public sector style benefits to private sector workers. And we think that that's extremely exciting. Keith shares an important aspect of Canadian public sector plans. 

[00:15:37] Keith Ambachtsheer: The wonderful Peter Drucker for legitimacy. And by legitimacy, what he meant, they have to have a clear purpose, and they have to be set up to actually achieve that purpose. You know, no sidebars, no other things getting in the way. 

[00:15:54] Russell Evans: Okay. I can't resist making a quick plug for CAAT Pension Plan here. For our listeners who are not familiar, CAAT is an independent, jointly governed plan that offers workplace defined benefit pensions. We're a not for profit and follow up profit for members model, which puts our members at the forefront of everything we do. As a purpose driven organization, our goal is to improve retirement income security for Canada. This is a win win for employees and employers. Let's explore why. It's easy to understand why employees want defined benefit pensions. There are numerous studies to show us this, or we're starting to see more of now, is that employers really want to offer defined benefit pension plans in the workplace, because there's tangible value for them and their employees. Here's Stephen's take on why employers need DB plans. 

[00:16:47] Stephen Poloz: I think the biggest and most practical risk that companies will face will be they won't be able to get the workers they need in order to complete their business plan. Right now, when you talk to a company, they're very ready to talk about ESG. ESG is top of mind because, you know, their their shareholders, their bank, their lender, you know, they're all under the bank, whatever, then, of course, they're their customers, and their employees themselves are all saying, well, I really don't want to be connected to you unless you're if you're meeting my expectations on E and on G. There's not a lot of chatter about the S, and I think it's the S that is going to come to the fore now, as that pendulum shifts, the power shifts from employer to employee. Yes. That's your workers. It's also, you know, broader society, but it's your workers that are the main constituent there. And so I think that spending more I think, I don't know, one more data point that is the share of income going to workers in the world, out of out of the total pie, the rest being going to capitalists. The share going to workers is is the lowest it's ever been, like in 500 years of history. Okay. This is a place where transitions happen. You know, revolutions may happen, these kinds of things. And so I really do believe that we're going to shift into a different plane. And, and companies will see this risk emerging. And if some are seeing it already, good, if others have made persuading. Okay. But I think for the next four or five years, it's become much more apparent as the retirement wave follows through. And in that situation, then firms are going to say, how do I manage that risk while, you know, I pay higher salary, okay, or do I have a, you know, a games room to attract people to the office and, you know, they can spend an hour their day? Well, I don't know. Everybody's got their own ideas around this, but I think one of the most powerful ones will be to put more of the the pie into the retirement window. And people will find that that's a great place to work, because I know I can spend my whole paycheck if I want, because I know that 25 years from now or 35 years from now, when I'm done, I got it made. Okay, I've got it covered. I'll still be able to live a good lifestyle. And so I think this is going to be the most powerful weapon of all. So the pendulum of pensions is back to the ascendant. That's my sense. Yeah. But of course it takes common sense to get there. I get that, and that takes, you know, a little clarity. You know, if you have to, you may be able to convince the CEO. Can you convince the CFO? You know what's in it for me, right. That's kind of like an important distinction, because it's going to cost money. Well, you know, if you if you look at your whole wage bill and you can find an umbrella pension that you can participate in, you're not taking responsibility for the the liability onto your balance sheet. You're just saying, here's the money that I want to contribute to my employee expansion. And you said your employee, would you like to be in a matching situation? And the employee says, yes, I'll do that because I'm going to, you know, you save seven or eight or whatever in your number, you pick all of your pay, then in it goes. And then some professionals are making sure that you've got a DB when the day comes, I think that's going to be a very, very powerful tool for for corporations. 

[00:20:17] Russell Evans: So here's what I heard from Stephen. He believes that there's going to be a semi-permanent rebalancing of the scales between the power that employees have versus employers. And that's going to bring us to a place where businesses are going to have to step it up and compete much more rigorously to attract and retain the best talent. Ultimately, what I heard from Stephen is that we're going into an unstable economic environment in which employers aren't going to compete for talent with bread and circuses anymore. It's not going to be the ping pong tables and beer taps and all of that. Instead, they're going to have to step it up with something much more substantial, which Stephen is seeing as workplace pensions. 

[00:21:03] Stephen Poloz: I think it'll be a core case of they'll want to do this and it'll be a win win because their employees will be putting a much higher value on the same thing because of the uncertainties that they face, which will be growing at the same time. Those will be uncertainties around, you know, your employment, right. We need to have portability in whatever it is we move to. And because there's going to be, you know, maybe instead of one recession every 10 years, there might be three or four. Okay. And, you know, big fluctuations in unemployment, both directions, not not like you're losing your job for five years, but you lose your job for six months or eight months every two years instead of almost never. And there be fluctuations in inflation. And then and of course, in all the financial markets, making that harder proposition for individuals just to manage themselves. And so not to mention that we're going to be living longer and nobody knows how long. So that's the only probably the biggest risk of all for individuals point of view. How much do I save? Oh how far do I need to go? Well, with overlapping generations, that pension pool is going to take care of that issue for you. So I think, the value will be higher for both the employer and the employee. It's not like we're filling a gap that exists today. Yeah, in a basic sense, yes, there's a gap, but but the momentum will be on both sides of that conversation. And it's kind of like the magic solution with, you know, one extra dollar put there is going to help solve problems for both parties. 

[00:22:45] Russell Evans: We knew we wanted to end this episode by talking to Paul Lai Fatt, the director of Pension Solutions here at CAAT. And one of the reasons for that is that Paul joined CAAT specifically because he believed in the potential of defined benefit pensions, and he shared our view that we can create a future in which pensions are not just for government workers or unionized employers, but pensions can truly be for everyone. Paul is located out east. He lives in the Halifax area because, well, CAAT traditionally has been in Ontario plan. We are now open coast to coast to coast, and we are expanding to support as many Canadians as possible. When I talked to Paul, he was so optimistic about the opportunities that exist by expanding DB coverage across Canada. So these are opportunities for Canadian employers. There are opportunities for Canadian workers, of course, but there are also opportunities for Canada overall. That said, there is also a challenge and the challenge is really around retirement, securing retirement income. And finally, the challenge that exists because most Canadians simply don't feel ready for retirement. 

[00:24:05] Paul Lai Fatt: So earlier this year, there was a survey that reported 76 percent of Canadians expect will work longer than their parents to be financially secure, and half of recently retired Canadians worried they're going to outlive their savings. Also, almost half of Canadians 44 percent between the ages of 55 and 64 have less than $5,000, save for retirement, and about one in five don't have anything saved. So those stats alone should be alarming for the retirement, security and future of Canadians. And that has a knock on effect on society as a whole. 

[00:24:35] Russell Evans: These stats are so alarming, and we're seeing the topic of retirement become more and more pressing because of them. Here's some of my conversation with Paul. Many of our listeners today are aware of the fact that defined benefit pensions are particularly effective in terms of building retirement income, but they might also think of defined benefit pensions as something that's outdated, that's no longer available. So can you tell us from a perspective inside of CAAT, what's change to make defined benefit pensions an option again? 

[00:25:14] Paul Lai Fatt: I think modern defined benefit pension plans like here at CAAT. I think the key is then making them as desirable for employers as they've always been for employees. So in part by making them sort of fixed cost and minimal effort for employers, you know, helping to remove the barriers that saw those employers moving away from DB plans over the last few decades. And so, as I said, employers have always wanted them. And so removing those barriers and making them more attractive to employers is something that CAAT is doing to help revive revived DB plans in Canada. 

[00:25:44] Russell Evans: Can you tell us a little bit about that? How is CAAT or how has CAAT reinvented defined benefit pensions? 

[00:25:51] Paul Lai Fatt: I think to help bring them back sort of in a cost effective, low risk way is important. You know, listening to employers over the last 20 years and consulting, it's clear they don't want the cost uncertainty and the cost volatility associated with traditional defined benefit pension plans. And they also don't want to take the fiduciary and operational responsibility of standing up a traditional single employer pension plan. So CAAT's manage to remove those barriers to take those arguments off the table now for those employers. I think also recognizing that some flexibility is required, there is no one size fits all. And so CAAT's approach to flexibility, both for employers and members, terms of contribution levels and phased in and contribution choice and things like that. The more flexibility you can provide to employers and workers, the more likely it is that they'll find a way to participate that works for them, and then making it available coast to coast has been groundbreaking. You know, I was looking at CAAT's 2019 annual report and in there and I think proudly and rightly, the report note that there were 76 participating employers at CAAT. So less than four years later, I think we're now over 330 participating employers. I don't think that's luck. I don't think it's coincidence. I think that's workers, employers realizing that the pension solutions that CAAT has to offer are valuable. 

[00:27:04] Russell Evans: So Paul, I could definitely understand why employees want defined benefit pensions, but this sounds like something that might be a tough sell for employers. Is it? 

[00:27:14] Paul Lai Fatt: Employees very much want the defined benefit pension plans. So more than 70 percent of Canadians say they will forgo a higher salary for a pension. Nearly 80 percent of Canadians said they're likely or very likely to change jobs for a better pension. There's lots of studies that show the impact of stress and how it has a direct impact on work and productivity, and stressed employees are nearly five times likely to say their finances have been a distraction at work. But employers should want a defined benefit pension plan, a modern, defined benefit pension plan like the one we have at CAAT. There are very tangible benefits for those employers. So a key differentiator in trying to recruit retain in industries, particularly where there aren't defined benefit pension plans already in place. There's value for employers and values include as we talk about the better talent attraction, boosted brand, boosted bottom lines, you know, liabilities minimize risk, cost, certainty, social value providing a better social impact for for Canada in general. But there's tangible ROI and turnover as well. So there's Canadian data from a Willis Towers Watson survey, which found that 72 percent of new hires who have a DB plan said the retirement program gave them a compelling reason to stay on the job. And so without a pension plan in place, employees have fewer economic incentives to stay that increases turnover, resulting in costly hiring retaining expenses. Another survey showed that a mid-level employee turnover cost about 150 percent of their salary, and if that person is a high level or highly specialized employee, that same turnover could cost about 400 percent of their salary to replace. Another study showed that defined benefit coverage increases tenure by about four years, compared to a workplace that has no plan in place, and increases that ten year by about 1.3 years compared to a workplace with a DC pension plan in place. 

[00:29:05] Russell Evans: What are some of the organizations that are choosing to switch to modern, defined benefit pensions? 

[00:29:11] Paul Lai Fatt: I think for me, the real answer is all kinds of different organizations. You know, we're seeing interest from organizations in the private sector, the public sector, small, medium, large, unionized, non-unionized. I think there's organizations that really see the value. I think there's a solution this year at CAAT that works for many different sectors for many different reasons. I know you had Dr. Susan Black in the Conference Board of Canada, one of the episodes of Contributors, and she mentioned during the pandemic they were looking for a way to add value and increase employee engagement for their workforce. And one of the ways they did that was to provide them with a modern, defined benefit pension plan through CAAT. 

[00:29:46] Russell Evans: I think when people think about defined benefit pensions historically, I think that's really where, you know, public sector workers come in or, you know, the fact that it would be available more exclusively to unions. But I think what you're seeing now is a much more inclusive approach where absolutely, it's for public sector workers. Absolutely, it's for unions. But it can also be for different kinds of organizations. We can also include Sanofi Pasteur or Brinks or the Conference Board of Canada. That really is it is an inclusive approach that benefits everyone. 

[00:30:19] Paul Lai Fatt: I think you're right, Russell. And I think the examples you mentioned, pensions were made attractive to those employers and not just for their employees. You know, the challenges for a single employer, particularly a smaller single employer, to start their own defined benefit pension plan is very challenging from a cost and risk perspective, as well as administration and fiduciary responsibility perspective. And with that, with an option like CAAT, you can get the cost certainty as that employer and not have the fiduciary risk or the operational responsibility for running those plans, which makes it a much more attractive option for those organizations that you mentioned. 

[00:30:54] Russell Evans: I've often heard it said that modern defined benefit pensions can exist as kind of the best of DB and DC. What does that mean? 

[00:31:04] Paul Lai Fatt: I think what that means is employers have always preferred a defined contribution type plan. So one where they have cost certainty, they have low touch points when it comes to managing them. And and frankly, that's one of the reasons I think we've seen employers move away from defined benefit over the years, whereas members have always preferred something that provides some secure retirement income in life for life, rather than trying to manage their own savings in retirement. And so what modern pension plans like DB Plus that your CAAT do is they provide that DC type experience for the employers with fixed cost and no volatility in contributions, but provides a pension for life, including inflation protection for those workers. 

[00:31:44] Russell Evans: So tell me about the concept of pensions for everyone. 

[00:31:47] Paul Lai Fatt: This concept is personal to me. As someone who's been in the pension industry for 20 years. I see the value of pensions and I see what happens when workplaces and workers don't have them. So it's a not for profit, purpose driven organization. We're really set on a mission to improve access to pensions across Canada. 

[00:32:09] Russell Evans: And there we have it. Pensions, particularly modern defined benefit pensions, offer a win win for employees and employers. 

[00:32:19] Keith Ambachtsheer: The employer has to think through, you know, what are what's the package of promises that I can make to an incoming employee to make and choose my firm rather than some other firm. And pensions very much fit into that. 

[00:32:34] Pamela Steer: That can be a huge determining factor in creating a stickier, more loyal employee base because they have something in the long term, and the employer has expressly and intentionally invested in the long term well-being of the employee. 

[00:32:51] Russell Evans: And if you're interested in learning more, there are some resources and experts available. 

[00:32:56] Paul Lai Fatt: I love talking about pensions. I'd love to talk to any employer and help them understand the current state of pensions in Canada. What's available to them. I can be found on LinkedIn. I'm quite an active user there. Otherwise I'd say go to pensionsmatter.ca, where you can find lots of information for employers on that business case for why a pension plan might be right for your workplace. 

[00:33:23] Russell Evans: So I don't come from a pensions background. I'm a marketing and communications guy and I've worked in all kinds of different industries. That means that I learn more about pensions every day. And over the course of these four conversations, I found that I have learned a lot about defined benefit pensions, where we've been, where we are, and where we're going. I think that I had always assumed that defined benefit pension plans declined in Canada because they were just too expensive. They were too unaffordable for businesses. What I didn't understand was that actually this issue was much more about risk and mitigating risk, which Pamela really helped shed a light on. In talking to Stephen, he talked about the fact that the next age of uncertainty is really going to result in a rebalancing of power between employers and employees. And what I liked about his perspective is he saw that rebalancing as an opportunity, not just for defined benefit pensions, but to build a stronger and more resilient Canada. In my conversation with Keith, I learn more about private versus public sector plans and what Canada really needs to thrive. And then finally talking to Paul was really interesting and educational, was especially great to learn all the ways in which Kat is making defined benefit pensions available to more Canadians coast to coast to coast, while also making defined benefit pensions more responsive to the needs of Canadian employers. I learned a lot today and I hope you did as well. Thanks for listening. Thank you for listening to Contributors. The podcast for Canadian leaders. We hope you'll take away some valuable insights and lessons from today's conversation. To help us reach even more listeners, please subscribe, rate and review. Contributors on Apple Podcasts. If you'd like to learn more about CAAT, visit us at CAATPension.ca.