[00:00:04] Jade: Welcome back to Season One of Contributors. We're wrapping up our inaugural season by having a conversation with host Russell Evans on the insights and tangible advice we've heard from leaders across the country, leaders who are investing in Canada's well-being. I'm Jade Towle and I work with Russell at CAAT Pension Plan. And with support from our friends at the podcast agency, Quill, I've been behind the scenes to help bring this podcast to life. Let's dive in and hear from Russell on some of the key takeaways from Canada's top change movers. So Russell, season one is now done. How are you feeling about it? 

[00:00:47] Russell: I'm feeling great about it. How are you feeling about it? You're a producer. How are you feeling about how we've done so far? 

[00:00:53] Jade: Turning the tables? Yeah, I'm feeling great. I think we've had such a successful first season and you know, I think about where we first started and how we thought about, you know, what is this podcast going to be about? How do we align our mission at CAAT with other leaders across the country in a way that we can really speak to all of our stakeholders as a jointly sponsored pension plan? 

[00:01:20] Russell: Absolutely. I think in the early days, we knew that we wanted to create a podcast to help promote CAAT because CAAT is a public pension plan. But CAAT's a little different in that. It is open to new employers and we wanted to promote that. But we decided that a show about pensions might be boring. People might not tune in on that. So, you know, we came up with this other idea around showcasing organizations that are trying to make Canada better because there's so many CAAT employers who are doing just that. And, you know, I think that's what we aspire to do here at CAAT as well, is to make Canada better by making retirement better for Canadians. So the fit felt natural. 

[00:02:05] Jade: What have you seen, Russell, I ask you this, around our theme of doing well by doing good as the show progressed is there anything that surprised you? 

[00:02:17] Russell: I think the thing that's probably surprised me the most is how transparent our guests have been. So the business leaders that we have been fortunate enough to have on the show have been really willing to kind of open the floodgates and and tell us everything and talk about things that have gone well and talk about things that haven't gone well and in some cases, even kind of spill the secret on their their secret sauce, that thing that that makes them successful. 

[00:02:43] Jade: Definitely. And I think about Catherine McCall, actually. So executive director at Canadian Coalition of Good Governance. Her secret sauce was about being adept at looking globally and thinking globally in terms of governance and best practice. And I think about that because when you start bringing in that secret sauce question, it was really interesting to see how that unfolded and the conversations you would have with other people prior to the episodes to learn about what that secret sauce is. You became a little bit of an investigator. 

[00:03:18] Russell: Yeah, I have a lot of spies. Absolutely. 

[00:03:23] Jade: I feel like this is a good segue into your conversation with John Ruffolo. A lot of people approached us after that episode and, you know, said, wow, this is so informative and useful. And we also got some comments about approaching it in a unique way. Can you share a little bit more about that? 

[00:03:41] Russell: Yeah, I think what you're referencing is that at the time that we interviewed John, he had been in the media a lot. There was a great Globe and Mail article about him and it effectively was about his accident and then about his recovery. And he came into the public eye with that article. And I think for a lot of people like I know some people reached out to me and they said, why don't you ask John about his accident, why you don't asked John about his recovery? And I think, you know, the answer to that question is, from my perspective, that's like the fifth of the six most interesting thing about John, right. Like he's got so much more than that to offer. So it's not that that's not an inspiring story. It is an inspiring story. He is a rock star of a guy. But I think the larger story with John is his contributions to innovation within Canada. And I think that's what we wanted to dig in on. And yeah, I think we wanted to maybe tell a story that wasn't the Globe and Mail story but was a supplement to that. But let's put it that way. 

[00:04:45] Jade: I agree. I thought it was really great content. And I also enjoyed seeing your rapport build with John right on the show, right during the recording. 

[00:04:57] Russell: Yeah. I still want to go over to his house and have wine. In his driveway. That hasn't happened yet but I think I have an open invitation. 

[00:05:07] Jade: Okay. So let's talk about some of the lessons we've learned on the show, Russell. I think for me, this show has been so impactful because we're hearing from employers who are either participating in the CAAT plan or are interested in participating. And they're telling us that the episodes really do provide tangible takeaways for the c-suite. And further to that, we've also been able to focus on critical and timely topics for our Canadian employees as well. So really speaking to that jointly sponsored piece we've talked about, what would you identify as three recurring themes we've heard about during the first season of contributors? 

[00:05:46] Russell: Yeah. So in fairness to our listeners, you know, you gave me a heads up on this question and you've given me a couple of days to think about this. So for me, the three are as follows. The first that I really saw when I listened back to the first couple of episodes again, was this idea of putting people ahead of product. So what I mean by that is for so many of the the business leaders and businesses that we have had the opportunity to spotlight, the product or service that they sell may change over time. Right. So for example, like Danby might start with refrigerators and move into ventilators. And what's really important for Danby are their employees and their products. Right. And then that's the commonality that I heard. I think that's really the strongest thing that's come through, is that idea of really prioritizing the people over over the product and service details. The second thing that I that is really come up again and again is leaning in to what's best about Canada. Leading into Canada's secret sauce. And I think what I heard, especially when I listened back to the episodes, was the idea of leaning into Canada's diversity. That Canada has this amazing base of global talent who have decided to come here and bring their skills and bring their passion here. And the companies that are going to win are the companies that find a way to fully leverage that. And then the final theme for me, at least of the season was this idea of taking the road less traveled. So, you know, you could call that innovation but I don't think innovation is really the word for it. In my mind, innovation is kind of this buzzword and I want to move past that. Because when you think of innovation, you think of technology and it's not necessarily about technology. I think when I hear the road less traveled, I think about organizations that decided to zig while everyone else is zagging. And I think that was one of the things that for me really came through loud and clear in season one. And it's something that I found myself thinking about all the time at CAAT in our roles within the communications team, Jade. 

[00:08:04] Jade: I love love those, Russell and I agree. Your first point around stakeholder centricity is spot on and it really aligns with our efforts at CAAT. We've talked about this already. We're constantly listening to and evolving because of our stakeholder needs. So let's unpack that a little bit more. Victor Dodig, CEO at CIBC. That's episode number 11 is a really great example of that. So let's start there. Victor talked about relationship management and really every aspect of the business. And what were some takeaways for you? 

[00:08:42] Russell: Yeah, he did. So Victor talked a lot about the importance of his people. And one of the things he talked about was kind of investing in his people but also ensuring that that all of his team members felt listened to, felt respected and also had the opportunity to familiarize themselves with the bank's strategy but also to really understand that strategy. We're going to be sharing some soundbites throughout today's episode. Let's hear a clip from Victor's episode. 

[00:09:14] Victor: Big part of it is sort of helping everyone understand what our purpose is, and that's our real social fabric as a bank and never taking it for granted, bringing it to life. I'll often exchange stories with our team members on our internal postings of great client experiences or of something really someone's done a great job serving a client. The client writes back to me. Always, always, always make it a point to give back to the client, our client and our team member to help them recognize that what they did reinforces the culture that we're building. The second thing is that people need to feel like they play a role. You know, they're inspired to stand up and deliver against the purpose of our bank. And that goes from everything in terms of how we train them and how skilled they feel in delivering against that. So make sure we're investing in that. And then I think the third thing is leadership. Leadership matters. Things don't happen by default. That is what is our special sauce, if you will, is our leaders engaging with our team to make sure we deliver against our purpose. 

[00:10:26] Jade: Listening back to that, it reminds me of the number of times the word purpose has been shared during our episodes. And I think purpose and stakeholder centricity really go hand-in-hand. I think what's interesting too, Russell is that again, during this episode, you've built such a great rapport with Victor and you talked about a person, an employee at CIBC that you engaged with. I know a lot of people actually asked after, was that was that real? Is that just behind the scenes to make a case? So tell us about that. Are you honest about your interaction with the CIBC employee? 

[00:11:05] Russell: Absolutely. You're talking about Kishore. So yeah, you know Kishore is a real person. I really do have a mortgage with CIBC. Kishore really is the mortgage advisor who has helped me. That's all the true story. I should also clarify, I also do love Disney World. I didn't make that up for the episode. I am also in Disney Vacation Club, similar to Victor, although I didn't say that on the episode. Yeah, you know, I think the CIBC is a really inspiring organization. Like I know one of the things that just kind of back to the theme about putting people first. I love that Make It Right program that they have. So in my mind, that's a program that really is not only about prioritizing your customers, which of course it does, right, because if every single employee at CIBC is empowered to solve customer problems, you are prioritizing your customers. But there's also something really inspiring about the way that program prioritizes employees because it empowers them. Right. It says no matter who you are at the bank, no matter what your role is, you are empowered to solve customer problems. And we trust you. And I love that. 

[00:12:14] Jade: That's wonderful. If we move on to another episode, let's talk about a few other guys. So Dr. Susan Black, she is the CEO of the Conference Board of Canada. This was episode number seven. Susan shared the importance of building stronger employee engagement. So in today's highly competitive environment for talent, we know and we continue to learn on the episodes that it's more important than ever for organizations to go above and beyond to recruit, attract and retain valuable employees. 

[00:12:50] Susan: There has been a lot of research over the last two decades that connects engagement to simply better operational results. So there have been studies that connect higher employee engagement to higher sales, higher employee engagement to higher profitability, higher employee engagement to greater sourcing of innovative ideas and so on. So I think we are very clear on the business case for greater engagement. Beyond that, I'll put it in more simple terms. I think everybody has probably had an experience in life where they when you don't feel engaged in the organization. And what happens when you're not engaged? You have a tape in your head that keeps playing over and over and keeps reminding you of all the irritations you have with the organization, all the dissatisfaction, the things that you want changed. I think if employees are engaged, that tape gets louder and louder and it reduces their ability and the organization's ability by extension to be resilient and to focus again on on the business. So engagement is not about making people happy. It's about putting them in the best possible environment so that collectively the outcomes are things like better revenue, better fundraising, whatever it is. The second thing I would say is from a humanist standpoint, don't we all want to work in a workplace that is respectful, that even if you disagree with colleagues, you can coexist with them in a way that's positive? Absolutely. 

[00:14:17] Jade: Russell, can you unpack that a little bit for us? What were your takeaways from Susan? 

[00:14:24] Russell: What Susan did at a Conference Board of Canada in terms of closing her physical offices and, you know, opening the organization up to talent across Canada is such a courageous move. Like she is so, so inspiring and so impressive. And I think what I really took away from Susan was the importance of creating that supportive environment. Right. Like, Susan is clearly a believer in culture. You know, culture eats strategy for breakfast. She didn't quote that, but she's clearly living it. So I thought that was really inspiring. And that's a lot of what we heard from our CEO, Derek Dobson, when we interviewed him as well. So I thought that was really neat. 

[00:15:11] Jade: Yeah, I think that's great. And the Conference Board of Canada is a participating employer of the DB Plus plan, and I love that that Susan spoke to that too. It certainly wasn't the core focus of this episode but they really took a holistic approach in improving their employees well-being from bringing in a workplace retirement plan, bringing in more of a digital aspect and improving their culture. 

[00:15:36] Russell: Absolutely. And for our listeners, if you're interested in kind of hearing more about this topic, so putting your people first. This has come up a couple of different times on season one. So the episode with Jim Estill from Danby Appliances, he talked about this. Our first episode with Paula Allen from LifeWorks. She talked about this. And really the commonality was this idea of investing in your people, investing in employee benefits, investing in creating that culture, creating an atmosphere where people want to come in every day. They want to solve client problems. They're really like, you know, investing in them so they invest back in you. 

[00:16:21] Jade: Russell, you also mentioned the power of diversity. So let's move on to this second theme. From an employer's perspective, I think, you know, it's fair to say that organizations understand the importance of diversity. It's certainly one of our key pillars at CAAT. But what lessons did we learn about diversity, specifically in your eyes, during our Contributors episode? So what takeaways are there for me if I'm an employer in Canada? 

[00:16:51] Russell: For sure. So not looking at any one particular episode. But looking across the episodes, I really came away with the feeling that, as I said earlier, this is Canada's secret sauce. So what I mean by that is I think when you when you look at the way Canada has historically approached immigration, we've really approached it from the you know, the tossed salad instead of the melting pot. So for Americans, the traditional way in which Americans viewed immigration is, you know, we're going to open the floodgates to countries and people around the world and we're going to help you assimilate, help you become an American. And I think Canadians haven't traditionally looked at it that way. We have looked at it, you know, you might use the tossed salad analogy, but effectively our approach has been to come to Canada, bring your customs, bring your skills, bring your ideas and inspire us, make us better. And I really think that when you think about innovation, that's what that's our secret, right. Like that is so powerful. Because it says, don't come here and become like us. Inspire us to become like you. And I really, really see that as one of the things that makes Canada so special. And that's come up a couple of times. And I know one of the places that concept came up first was in our discussion with Yung Wu from MaRS. 

[00:18:20] Yung: If there's one thing I've noticed about the innovation economy, the fuel is actually talent. So the question is how can we actually refuel the future of energy? Why couldn't we be, you know, the global or globally dominant future of energy player? So the future for Canada, I think is is built on can we become a can we continue to attract a multi-generational destination point for the talent? That fuels innovation for the markets that surround that talent and the intellectual property and for the capital that then assembles around all those solutions. And we don't have to make every single bet underneath the sun. There are areas where we actually have a really, really significant advantage from an intellectual property point of view already. So how can we continue to make this place, Toronto, Ontario, Canada the destination for the fuel that drives the innovation economy. And to inspire those new members of our communities, to build their families here, to reinvest here, to create new companies out of here, to contribute to their communities over here. Silicon Valley took 90 years to get the word got to. It wasn't a ten year thing. It was a 90 year thing. 

[00:19:50] Jade: Yung's points around attracting a multi-generational destination for Canada really reminds me of your conversation with Stephen Poloz, Russell during episode number five, where you discuss the challenges in Canada and also the aging demographic, which was a really key part of that. 

[00:20:11] Russell: That was such an interesting conversation and such an interesting episode. So he did talk about immigration. And I think when he was talking about the aging Canadian population and our need for skilled labor, he really saw immigration as a big part of that solution. The other thing that I heard from him was interesting. And it actually touches on on our first theme, which is kind of putting people ahead of product. And what he really talked about was you've got an aging population, you've got a need for new skills, and yeah, you can lay off your people and you can try to find new employees with those skills. But the smart companies, the companies that win are going to be the companies that say, you know what, we've got a loyal workforce. They like to be here. Let's invest in retraining these people because they know our customers, they know what we're trying to achieve as a business. And I found that really inspiring the idea that, you know, as technology changes, you don't need to change your people. That in many ways it's more efficient and effective to reinvest in them. 

[00:21:22] Jade: Reinvest in them. And I think it's such a valid point. This reminds me a little bit of Anne Sado's episode because she had a similar perspective, right. She said reinvest in employees where it makes sense but also be open to bring in new skills, new people. Find new ways to bring in new talent. So let's talk about that a little bit. Anne is a member of the Order of Canada. She was the former president of George Brown College. And she talked a lot about closing the skills gap in Canada. What were your takeaways as it relates to diversity? 

[00:21:59] Russell: I love talking to Anne. And with CAAT being the pension plan historically for the colleges of Ontario, I was particularly interested in in some of the solutions that she had to propose that involve colleges. And one of the things that I walked away feeling was colleges might be the way that we solve the problem of the Uber driver who's actually an engineer. You know, we've all encountered that and we've all felt like, geez, why can't Canada get our stuff together? Why do we have these highly skilled individuals that aren't able to work at their level? Anne really made me feel like colleges might be the way to solve that. 

[00:22:43] Anne: And I also think, again, that we're not capitalizing on the skills and competencies of new immigrants. We started strengthening support for new immigrants. And we did that because we were finding that 100 percent of our labor market growth would come from new immigrants in the future. And we had to find a way of integrating them into Canadian society and into the workforce more quickly. 

[00:23:06] Russell: I think what Anne ultimately we're saying is that that global war for talent, race for talent, whatever you want to call it, is at an all time high. And ultimately, employers are scrambling to keep their people and attract the best possible talent they can. And that ends advice to us is that organizations that are willing to hire new immigrants that are willing to look beyond kind of you know, sometimes you get organizations that are that demand Canadian experience. They'll say, you know, you seem to have a good resumé but you don't have Canadian experience. I think Anne's comment is the way that you're ultimately going to win the war for talent is you need to find a way to move beyond that and integrate great candidates with Canadian experience and without. And I think that's really exciting. 

[00:24:01] Jade: This conversation is in far from what we heard from our friend John Ruffolo, managing partner at Maverix. Russell, what are your thoughts on John's episode? I know you really enjoyed recording this one. 

[00:24:14] Russell: I recall John talking about three things. I think it were the three things that companies needed to to innovate or perhaps it was to thrive in the innovation space. But John talked about access to customers, obviously, access to capital and then finally access to talent. And ultimately on that last point, John's perspective and it's a perspective that I share, is that our highly skilled immigration pool gives us a competitive edge on that final requirement that access to talent. 

[00:24:50] John: So the world is in a war for talent. And the quality of our talent in the innovation space matches anyone in the world. There is zero question. I think the world has caught up to that. Do we have enough of it? Probably not. And so and in fact, a lot of the foreign based companies, particularly American based, really come over here whether to attract AI talent, quantum talent, blockchain talent. But there's plenty of it. So where do we continue to get this talent as we're continually run short? Well, let's look at our immigration policies. This is one area that Canada is one of the best in the world in. And our CCI organization was heavily involved in the development of immigration policy, particularly for what was called the Temporary Foreign Worker visas. And it was us who helped decrease the process from nine months to several weeks. And what's been very interesting is Canada despite what we say, is hot around the world in terms of an attraction for immigrants. We are a great place where they feel comfortable. And they landed in Canada, particularly Toronto, Montreal and in Vancouver. And so in what they realized is, oh, well, I could still live in Canada and I could do my little jaunts over in Silicon Valley or New York quite easily. So I don't need to live there. And all of a sudden we get this incredible addition of brainpower that we never had. 

[00:26:50] Jade: So we're closing this theme of what is the one takeaway you think all employers should should be considering? 

[00:27:00] Russell: I think in closing on this, it would be a couple of things. So I think the idea of leaning in on our Canadianess. So I think that is are commitment to diversity and to multiculturalism. I think there's also an opportunity here for looking at hiring, you know, talent within Canada but also not being afraid to recruit globally because we know that great talent from around the world want to live in Canada. They want to be here. They see the potential of Canada. So I think that there is that's another takeaway there. The other thing is I think there's more to Canada than diversity. I think one of the things that defines us as Canadians is we're kind and we're altruistic, that we care about each other, we care about the planet, we care about social justice. So making that a part of your story, too. So as a business, you can be purpose driven and you can prioritize more than the bottom line. And that's actually going to be part of what gets you top talent. 

[00:28:15] Jade: Let's jump into the final theme. So the road less traveled. 

[00:28:21] Russell: So for me, the road less traveled is around innovating. It's around zigging while other people zag. If we're just doing what everybody else is doing, we're not going to truly break through. We need to try some things no one has ever tried before. And I think that's what I mean by the road less traveled. So there are so many examples of this in Season One. One of my favorites would be Zahid Salman. Zahid Salman is the CEO of Green Shield Canada. We talk a lot about Green Shield Canada on that episode. But ultimately what Green Shield is and it's so cool is they are a purpose driven workplace benefits provider and they're completely different from every other workplace benefits provider that I'm familiar with. Insofar as they're not a payment portal. So, you know, typical workplace benefits provider. Russell goes to the dentist, he gets some cavities filled, he gets his receipt, he submits it on a portal. And then we send him some of the money back in in a transfer to his bank account. Green Shield does all that. But then they also actually provide medical services. So they're invested in your health. Not just in helping you going to get reimbursement. And that is a much more complicated business to be in. But it's also exciting because it means that they don't really have any true competitors because the service they're providing is unlike everybody else. And I love that. I find that really inspiring. 

[00:29:54] Jade: All right. So what sort of episode would this be if we didn't move into retirement savings options? And, you know, a nice time to say this episode and this podcast is certainly not about us. But what we did find a recurring theme around the road less traveled is in the retirement savings space, the retirement savings plans in the workplace. Let's start with lessons from Dawn Marchand. So Dawn is CEO of the not for profit organization Lawyers Financial and the Canadian Bar and Insurance Association, CBIA. Her episode really explored opportunities around financial wellness in the workplace and how planning around retirement can build a better future. And Dawn identified that employees are asking for a lot more from their employers. 

[00:30:49] Russell: I really admire Dawn and I really admire the work that she is doing at Lawyers Financial. And I think one of the things that we talked about on that episode is when people think of lawyers, they think of a group of people that are really smart, really well-educated and sort of in control. Right. Like the masters of the universe. So I think the the insight from Dawn and Lawyers Financial is as much as lawyers are well-spoken and impressive. Just because you're a great lawyer doesn't mean that you're great at everything. Like you could be a great lawyer but not very good at picking stocks. Or you could be a great lawyer and not really good at retirement planning. And that was the insight from Dawn is even lawyers might need help with some of this stuff. And she came forward with plans to provide that help, that education, that access to retirement savings plans. And it's something that really resonated with her audience. 

[00:31:51] Jade: I think Dawn's great. Loved this episode, loved all the tangible takeaways she provided. I think that she also brings something to the table around employers responsibilities. So when we think about retirement savings, a lot of the onus is on Canadians, on employees to make sure that they're ready. And what Dawn says is that, well, actually, employers have a huge responsibility here. And rather than a responsibility, maybe an opportunity to really take care of their people. 

[00:32:25] Dawn: Employers have a responsibility to try and contribute to their employees financial well-being. They do it by providing them with a salary. That's fair. But it goes beyond that. It's important that employers do it more so than ever, because the war for talent is more significant than ever before. People are coming into the I see it. You know, I'm a boomer. I'm a late stage boomer. But that's not who we're hiring. You know, we're hiring the young people. They're not as focused on salary as they are on what are the other benefits that are provided. They specifically ask about retirement benefits. They ask about health benefits. They ask about culture, about time off. When I was getting a job, it was, okay, what are you paying me? Is that fair? All right, let's go. But today's employees are asking for more. And I applaud them for doing so. The other reason why employers really need to focus on retirement programs is that people aren't retiring because they don't know that they can or they simply can't. And so what you're losing is that mid-level, your high performers who don't see a progression plan for themselves and will go someplace else where they do or will start their own organization. And so you're losing the best talent that you have because you can't offer them growth. 

[00:33:54] Jade: This is a good segue into Derek Dobson's episode. This was episode number eight. I think, a few years ago, pensions and innovation or pensions and the road less traveled would not be as tied together but that's changed a lot. Tell us about that, Russell. 

[00:34:13] Russell: I think what we are doing at CAAT is absolutely the road less traveled. I think when people think of big public pension plans traditionally, what they think about is a fantastic gold standard, well-managed pension plan that you don't have access to. You know, and you hear people say, I wish I was a blank because if I was a blank then I would have access to that pension as well. And where CAAT has come in and where Derek specifically has come in is he's asked the question, why not? Why can't we open this plan up and welcome employers from across Canada? Why can't we create a way that we're welcoming for profit businesses, not for profits, public sector workers, unionized, non-unionized. Why can't we open this up to as many Canadians as possible? And that is the road less traveled. And it's so inspiring. 

[00:35:22] Derek: There's not a business that I've run into that pensions, an improved workplace pension plan wouldn't meet their bottom line objectives. So some of the employers I'm working with are definitely more focused on doing better for their employees, improving their wellness, which will end up in being more productive, more likely to stay. I saw a stat recently from a study that showed if you're worried about retirement, that's equivalent of 16 days of lost productivity. So there's a bottom line impact there. There's a corporate social responsibility impact. There's a positive branding impact by making sure your employees not only are less stressed today but you're not creating pensioners living in poverty. That can never be good for your brand. In a couple of the stats that we share with employers, for example, is when employees are given the chance to opine, do they want to join CAAT? We have a 97 percent endorsement rate. Just think about how complex pensions are and change is difficult for people. But 97 percent of people voted in favor of change to get access to a better pension plan. The stats from a for those employers that have union relationships. Just think about the goodwill or the soft landing of keeping or returning to a defined benefit pension plan. We've had a 100 percent endorsement. We have relationships with 15 different unions. We're supporting DB plus. Couple of other things. Lots of studies show lower severance costs, getting rid of fiduciary risks and the potential for lawsuits if you're picking an investment line up in the DC plan. The lack of governance time not having to invest in systems and technology to help people figure out retirement. These are the things I'm hearing from leaders is I want to focus on my core business. That's never been more important for me to focus on my core business. I'm going to outsource my pension risk management business to somebody we can trust. And CAAT being a not for profit trust fund that's been around since 1967. We're taking all the boxes. 

[00:37:48] Jade: What do you think Derek would say to an employer today? So what's Derek's biggest lesson or greatest takeaway he'd want employers to know? 

[00:37:59] Russell: If we think about where we are right now in 2022, the global race for talent, I think the thing that Derek would say would be you likely know that a great workplace retirement plan is good for your people. Maybe, you know, that's good for Canada overall. But the most important thing I want you to know is it's good for your business. It's going to help you retain your best people. It's going to help you attract top tier talent. And it just makes sense from a dollars and cents perspective. 

[00:38:35] Jade: I think overall, these were some great lessons. We covered a lot here. So stakeholder centricity, we talked about diversity. We talked about talent and attraction and following the road less traveled. Thanks for joining us. We're working on season two to bring you more conversations with organizations and leaders who are making a difference in Canada. Be sure to follow or subscribe to Contributors wherever you listen to your podcasts. And this is also a great opportunity for us to talk about potential guests. We're always open to your suggestions. If you think we should speak with someone, please let us know. You can get in touch with us at contributorspodcast.ca. 

[00:39:17] Russell: Absolutely. If you know a Canadian business leader who's contributing to a better Canada, let us know, drop us a note and we might have them on the show to share their story. See you next time.