[00:00:05] Russell Evans: This is Contributors, a show exploring how today's Canadian business leaders are building a better future for Canada. Welcome back to Contributors. I'm joined, as always, by my colleague at CAAT, Jade Towle. Jade, who do we have on the show today? [00:00:19][13.7]

[00:00:20] Jade Towle: Hey, Russell. We have Ross Wainwright. He is the CEO of Alida. Alida is a total experienced management platform. Really love this organization because they lead with the belief that the best decisions are those made with customers and clients, not for them. [00:00:39][19.1]

[00:00:40] Russell Evans: I'm really excited to talk to Ross. I think there's some really interesting things that Alida is doing. I know that they have experimented with a four-day workweek with their people, so I'm going to ask you about that. But the big thing that I'm interested in learning more about is making decisions based on customer insights, listening instead of talking. This is one of the big themes that has come through over the first two seasons of Contributors, and it's effectively their business model. Their business model is do more listening to the people that matter most, which is your customers. So really excited to learn exactly how it is they do that and what's behind it. So let's get into it. [00:01:24][43.9]

[00:01:25] Jade Towle: Let's dive in. [00:01:25][0.7]

[00:01:31] Russell Evans: So, Ross, welcome to the show. [00:01:33][1.6]

[00:01:34] Ross Wainwright: Thank you. It's great to be here. Thanks for the opportunity, Russell. [00:01:36][2.3]

[00:01:37] Russell Evans: It's great to have you. Why don't we open with you, just telling us a little bit about yourself in your own words. [00:01:42][5.1]

[00:01:43] Ross Wainwright: I'm a very proud Canadian, based here in Toronto. I spent 20 years in the United States, so perhaps in some ways the Canadians think I sound like an American and the Americans think I sound like a Canadian. But I've spent 33 years in technology. I actually came back to Canada in 2020, in the middle of the pandemic to lead Alida. I'm so happy to be back. [00:02:08][24.9]

[00:02:09] Russell Evans: If you've heard the show before, you know that we're all about Canada and we're all about making Canada better. I do have a confession to make, though, which I've never made on the show, which is I'm a dual citizen and I understand that you're a dual citizen. Is that correct? [00:02:22][13.4]

[00:02:23] Ross Wainwright: I am. I carry two passports. But at the end of the day, I'm a Canadian kid, so and very proud and thrilled with the obviously the place you put on Canadian culture, where I always say we're not a perfect country, but we're a pretty good one. On the global stage, we're a very good one. [00:02:39][16.1]

[00:02:39] Russell Evans: I want to talk a little bit more about that. What did you learn from living in America and becoming an American? Because I think that's an experience that not every Canadian CEO has, and I suspect there's value in that. [00:02:50][11.3]

[00:02:52] Ross Wainwright: You know, the market is so big, Russell. You know, I think it kind of takes courage, right, because we have to get out of our comfort zone. For me, it took a lot of luck. Right place at the right time. Americans are, as a culture, they're so focused on winning all the time, and they do it through a super hard work ethic, but also being very courageous. And I think some of those values I think, really apply and can be applied to the the Canadian market leading a Canadian company, provided you do it with authenticity and empathy, at the end of the day. [00:03:27][35.1]

[00:03:27] Russell Evans: Living in America, becoming an American, I feel like you probably developed a deeper understanding of Canada's strengths. So what were those? 
[00:03:37][10.0]

[00:03:38] Ross Wainwright: During the pandemic, there were more jobs generated in Toronto and Vancouver and in Montreal than Silicon Valley and Austin, Texas combined, surprisingly enough. So we've become a force in the market. And but 20 years ago it didn't exist. But today it's just an amazing place to build a career. You know, I credit the Canadian government and the provincial governments. Our businesses split between British Columbia and Ontario, and our immigration policy and you know how welcoming we are to bringing people into our country that have amazing skills and amazing passion and work ethic. You know, we have a lot of new Canadians that find their way into our company. And, you know, when you blend that with folks that have, you know, grown up in Toronto or grown up in Vancouver, it just makes for an amazing culture. I think we need to be courageous. I think we need to be bold. I think we got to think global and think big for our companies, for our customers, because we've got a lot of a lot to be proud of. [00:04:37][58.5]

[00:04:37] Russell Evans: So that's a perfect segue way to tell us about your company. [00:04:40][3.2]

[00:04:41] Ross Wainwright: We're a 23 year old start-up, Russell. Vision Critical was founded in 2000. So we provide software that helps our customers to really understand what's in the hearts and minds of their customers. We do it through the power of what we call community. You know, everybody wants to be, community is a powerful thing in life, whether it's your your hockey community or the community you live in or the community where you vacation. You know, community is how you belong and how it's, it's how you learn. And we leverage the customer experience space in a very different way than our competitors by really celebrating community. [00:05:19][38.1]

[00:05:21] Russell Evans: The way I understand your product is really this idea of embedding the voice of the customer in the corporate decision making process. So that you're not making customer focused decisions based on your own hunches or what you think would work for them, but really their experience, what they need, how they intend to use your product or service along those lines. So I'm wondering, is there a reason you think that this is more important than ever right now for Canada and for Canadian businesses? [00:05:52][31.8]

[00:05:53] Ross Wainwright: When I talk to c-level executives across Canada, the two things that they will continue to invest in are cybersecurity and customer experience software, customer experience management software. The market is so dynamic right now and there are headwinds. I don't know if we're in a recession. Maybe by the time we claim we're in a recession, we will have been in it for six months. We're certainly, I think in some ways in a tech recession. Obviously, it's horrible to see the downsizing. But I think what's interesting right now is that you can't afford not to get it right the first time. Whether you're building product or servicing your customers and your customers needs, their sentiments are changing every single day. So we talk about time to insights or the importance of how quickly you can get to the heart of the matter as you build a product or as you evolve your brand or your customer experience. And I think that this is that the right technology at the right time to help companies during a tougher economic environment. Right. You know, budgets are tight. But the one thing you can't avoid, you have to keep servicing your customers. So get it right the first time. And it's not just the market basket of Canadian customers. Let's think about it in the context of what does Gen-Z, Gen-Y versus baby boomers want? Men versus women, different nationalities, different cultures, different locations. Our AI driven engine really helps to not just get into the hearts and minds of the customers that matter the most, but then package it up for the demographic that is most important, whether it be the young kids, whether it be my kids in their late twenties, the millennials, or whether it be the baby boomers. And then think about it around gender and culture. And our technology is really designed to provide that feedback in a segmented format through these the power of these communities. [00:07:52][118.6]

[00:07:54] Russell Evans: I read that you said you believe that the best business decisions in the world are made with customers, but not for customers. What does that mean to you? [00:08:03][9.1]

[00:08:04] Ross Wainwright: This really touches on this concept of empathy. If we put the customer in the heart of how we want to run our business and really listen to them, good things will happen. If you listen, they will tell you. Similarly, I think if you really embrace and provide empathy through the challenges that our employee basis has gone through over the last couple of years, your employees will be more engaged and happy, they'll be inspired, and they in turn will take better care of your customer. I think tech companies need more empathy. I think the business world and the communities we live in need more empathy. [00:08:42][37.8]

[00:08:43] Russell Evans: Completely agree. Such that it doesn't feel like we're talking about kind of concepts. I want to bring this down to something that's very real. So why don't you can walk us through what your product looks like, why it was purchased, what the whole thing look like with the most Canadian of companies I can think of, which is Canadian Tire. And I'm wondering, I know Canadian Tire is a client of yours. Why did they come to you? What did that look like? Tell us the story. [00:09:11][27.7]

[00:09:12] Ross Wainwright: Canadians are passionate about Canadian Tire around all sorts of things. Like I remember growing up with Canadian Tire Money, right, which was really a loyalty program. We have 250,000 people in the Canadian Tire community on Alida that are helping to make better decisions. So Canadian Tire serves the best interests of their Canadian shoppers. I'll give you a simple example. Canadian Tire sells a lot of shovels in the fall and throughout the winter. And historically, Canadian Tire had the best shovel. The shape, the size, the strength, the durability, the price. And someone had the idea of, well, what if we changed the shape of the bucket, the size of the bucket, let's take some material cost out so we can make more profit. So before they took a world class, world winning shovel product, they went to their community, the 250,000 people, and said, how do you, do you have an emotional reaction to the Canadian Tire shovel? And they said, don't touch the shovel, Russell. The shovel is perfect. We always buy our shovels from Canadian Tire. But it wasn't just about the shovel, because when people go and by the shovel, they go and buy the hockey skates, they go and buy the net, they go and, you know, put their rink in the backyard. Right. So it's kind of a loss leader. But that's an example where the community helped to make a good business decision. In that case, don't change it. It's perfect. So I love that story. One last comment on Canadian Tire. Canadian Tire is a very innovative company. They have come up with a concept called personalization of customer experience. So the example is when I go in and join specifically the triangle community and I tell them a little bit about myself. I'm 50. I like to ride bikes. I'm an outdoorsy guy. I like to kayak. So when I go to buy a tent to take my kids camping, Canadian Tire will come back and said, Well, did you know that we actually have a special on roof racks and bike racks on the back of your car? And they actually know what I'm looking for and they can be prescriptive on other products or other promotions that I might be interested in. This is the concept, personalized experience and personalized shopping. And it's something that the data and the Triangle app for Loyalty. The Canadian Tire has figured this out and Canadians are loving it. It's an amazing thing. [00:11:35][143.3]

[00:11:36] Russell Evans: So does your data work with theirs? [00:11:39][2.5]

[00:11:40] Ross Wainwright: The Alida platform is embedded inside of Canadian Tire. So when you go on to the Triangle app, it will actually launch a little program. It'll ask you, Do you approve? I approve. I'm happy to tell Canadian Tire who I am and my age and what some of my interests are, what my birth date is, what are some of the sports teams, do I have a pet. And all of a sudden I'm interested in getting more information from Canadian Tire, and I love the brand, so bring it on. [00:12:04][23.9]

[00:12:05] Russell Evans: That's fantastic. I was envisioning that. It was like I was Customer 24601 and you were collecting data about me, but you never knew it was Russell Evans. But you're saying, no, there's an actual opt in there. [00:12:15][9.9]

[00:12:15] Ross Wainwright: It's actually a double opt in because they'll ask you twice, Are you okay with this? But it's a great opportunity to just have a more intimate relationship with the buyer, with inflation and interest rates and all the challenges that we're facing across Canada. It's good. It's so important that retailers have a trusted relationship with their client and understand what their clients are going through and what their clients are interested in. Because dollars are tight, right? These are tough times right now. [00:12:44][28.3]

[00:12:44] Russell Evans: You are working with a number of great Canadian companies. Canadian Tire is just one. I understand Indigo is in there. I have a friend from high school that works at Flipp. I understand you work with them as well. Can you tell us a little bit more about the role that you see in supporting Canadian business. [00:13:01][16.8]

[00:13:02] Ross Wainwright: Although we do business around the world and obviously the U.S. is a huge market for us, we really punch way over our, you know, our weight class, if you will, in Canada. And the companies that you talked about just now, like, you know, Indigo, Canadian Tire, Flipp is a terrific company that is it's an electronic digitized experience for coupon clipping, essentially. And how important is that to Canadians right now with rising, you know, grocery bills? [00:13:32][29.5]

[00:13:33] Russell Evans: Tell me about the Delta Awards. [00:13:34][1.4]

[00:13:36] Ross Wainwright: So we have some amazing heroes in our customer base. These are individuals within our organization that we recognize every year for really making change to serve their customers by leveraging our technology. And we call them the Delta Award winners. So we have a kind of a cool innovation strategy where we're in the listening game. So if we listen to our customers, they'll tell us how to build a better product. Those heroes, those Delta Award winners, will tell us how to build a better product. What they want to see in the analytics or the dashboards or how they want to link various different survey types. They will help to guide us on how to build a better product. And the Delta Awards are really there to celebrate their contribution, helping our company build a better product. [00:14:23][47.2]

[00:14:24] Russell Evans: So do you have a panel? Do you have a panel for your customer? [00:14:27][3.1]

[00:14:27] Ross Wainwright: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. We have the Alida customer advisory board, and we do it in each of our industries. So we do it in retail. We do it in automotive. We do it in media. We do some sub verticals. We do it in the gaming space. We do it in the streaming video space. We do it in automotive. And we have customer advisory boards all the time just to understand how to build a better solution and how it's about providing competitive advantage, right? It's how do I give my customers a competitive advantage so they can win in their markets? And that's 100 percent of what we're focused on. [00:15:04][37.0]

[00:15:06] Russell Evans: What are some of the hurdles that you hear from the corporate clients that you work with in terms of what's impeding them from being able to listen to their customers? [00:15:14][8.2]

[00:15:15] Ross Wainwright: So we believe today that only a quarter of the feedback that is pulled together is actually put into action. It goes and actually helps to make a business decision. So most, you know, how we get a survey for everything we do. You go to a restaurant, you get a survey. You go in, you go and get your your oil changed on your car, and you get a survey. I think there's survey fatigue at the end of the day. Mostly because you provide feedback, but then there's no closed loop. You don't see any change. The survey responses, somewhere between one and two percent. It's very low. But when we build a community, so let's say you're a Toyota customer, you've always been a Toyota customer, now you're a Lexus customer. You love your vehicle and you believe in the brand. When we ask you to be part of the community, your message is, of course I'll be part of the community because you believe in the brand. When we send a survey to you, Russell, because you're a Lexus guy and you get your oil change, because you're part of that community, the response rate is somewhere between 40 and 60 percent. It's really good. And the quality of the feedback you provide. I had a great experience because you welcomed me. I didn't have a great experience because you told me you'd wash my car when I leave and the car was filthy. Right. Now there's a closed loop. Lexus will benefit. You will be happier because you're actually they're listening to you. So I'll give you another fun example. So Volvo is one of our customers. I'll pick on the automotive guys, but it's a great story. Volvo was getting thousands of people putting deposits down for their an order of their vehicle, $1,000. So good chunk of money. 50 percent of the time people were walking away from their deposits, and Volvo had no idea why. They could send a survey, but do you think someone's going to respond to the survey after, you know, obviously they're frustrated or they wouldn't have walked away from the thousand dollars? So now when you put the thousand dollars, you get the opportunity to be part of the Volvo EV community, to build better cars, to build a better experience, to have a better impact, a more stronger impact on climate change in Canada. Guess what? Everybody signs up and everybody engages. And guess what? The thousand dollars turns into a sold vehicle for Volvo. [00:17:30][134.6]

[00:17:31] Russell Evans: Why were they walk away from the thousand dollars? You can't leave us hanging on that. [00:17:33][2.6]

[00:17:34] Ross Wainwright: They didn't know. They didn't know because there was no way, they had no way to get a response from them. You know, obviously, they bought another vehicle. Maybe it was time, it was price. But the problem is they didn't know. And then the other question is not only why did you walk away, but are you already a Volvo client? If you're walking away and you're already a Volvo client, that's a huge problem, isn't it? [00:17:54][19.8]

[00:17:55] Russell Evans: So there could be people listening today who think, you know, this sounds amazing, but it does sound a little bit like preaching to the converted. Is there a risk that the people that join the panel fall victim to a self-selection bias? And as a result, you're only hearing from the brand loyalists and the people that are neutral sitting on the fence don't have a voice. What's your response to that? [00:18:20][25.7]

[00:18:21] Ross Wainwright: It's a really interesting question. We have 176 million people that are on our platform at any given time. It's such a broad sample size that I think certainly there'll be some bias that they will love the product, but people can be equally passionate about the product, but equally constructive or equally constructively critical about how to build a better product. And I think the Canadian market is is particularly engaged. We're not apathetic. If we don't like it, we'll tell you. Right. We care. And you know what, we want our dollar going to something that's going to add value. And if it's not right, we want it fixed. And I think our technology I think, really fits well for that Canadian market for that reason. [00:19:06][45.2]

[00:19:07] Russell Evans: Let's talk a little bit about Net Promoter Score. So Net Promoter Score is a measure that many business leaders, many marketers despise. I understand that your software is working to transform that. Let's talk about that. [00:19:25][17.2]

[00:19:25] Ross Wainwright: You're absolutely on the right track here, Russell. This whether it be the voice of the employee internally within our company or companies or within our customers. It's a survey response. It's a data point. The data point has value, right? We were 60 out of 100, and now we're 71 out of 100 on a specific KPI, on a specific metric. But if we do that with in conjunction with a community where you've got people providing real, tangible, qualitative and quantitative feedback, that's when the magic happens. My score is too low. I've got a problem. Let's go listen to our customers to go figure out how to build a better online retail e-commerce experience. We're dropping too many carts on products that we're looking to buy. We know they're dropping them. We know the Net Promoter Score is lousy. Now let's go find understand the why behind it. And we do that through community. [00:20:19][54.0]

[00:20:20] Russell Evans: So let's talk a little bit about your people. Alida has been consistently recognized as one of the best places to work in Canada since your arrival in 2019. I also read in a Forbes article that you were quoted saying you think the companies need to make their values the North Star of everything they do. So I want to know a little bit about your values and then what does that look like in interactions with your staff? [00:20:48][27.2]

[00:20:49] Ross Wainwright: You know, first of all, we have a no jerk policy at the end of the day. You know, if leaders aren't smart enough to go figure out how to meet their employees where they are to inspire them, you still have to hold people accountable to do their job. But I think leaders need to be progressive and they need to recognize who their employees are. And they've got to find a way to meet them where they are. So I'll give you an example. During the pandemic, I could see manifestations of mental health challenges, right? I thought about, you know, a couple with two young kids in a 800 square foot condo in Vancouver or Toronto. Many families are in that situation, and I could see the stress levels rising. So we decided to do something bold and we decided to roll out last summer, a pilot in July and August around what we call the four-day workweek. We basically gave them a three-day weekend. Now, when I started my career, maybe the same for you, Russell, if someone said to me, I'm going to have a long weekend every weekend for the summer, I would say I wouldn't believe it. Right. So there were a couple conditions, right? First of all, we had to make sure that we were helping them get better work life balance and be happier. I was pretty sure we were going to be successful in that one. But we also had to run the business, right? We still had to get our work done. So we ended up rolling out the program. It's now a permanent part of our culture. So our benefits package, we call it Summer Fridays. The work still has to be done, but it's about the empowerment. What I learned about this process with the employees we're most excited about was that we trusted them, that I empowered them to get their work done. The day you should trust your employees, the day you hire them, otherwise don't hire them. Right. [00:22:34][104.8]

[00:22:35] Russell Evans: Yeah. [00:22:35][0.0]

[00:22:35] Ross Wainwright: It was a really interesting learning for me that the power of trust, that intersection of trust and empowerment is the secret sauce to building great culture. And today we have a 96 percent what we call employee happiness score. Are you happy or very happy working at Alida? But we have to keep working on it. You can't rest on your laurels. So we rolled out the four-day workweek, rolled into Summer Fridays, and now we have something called Alida empowerment with unlimited vacation, which everybody, all companies, I think should be considering, as well as a concept called No-Meeting Fridays. The idea is, rather than on Friday, having, you know, zoom calls from eight in the morning to five. What if we did no internal meetings? Just talk to your customers or work on some some some development that you have. And I think the employees really love that. Just having, again, more empowerment but more flexibility just to have an opportunity to breathe. [00:23:30][54.4]

[00:23:31] Russell Evans: So are you listening to your employees the same way that you're listening to your customers? How does that work? [00:23:35][4.7]

[00:23:36] Ross Wainwright: Precisely. It's exactly the same. We do a quarterly pulse survey. We rolled up a pretty interesting program around diversity and inclusion. It was really interesting because I realized I had a lot of work to do in the area of DE&I, you know, you're not going to move the needle unless you consciously, as a CEO or as a senior executive, are committed to make change. And what I learned was a little tip, ERGs are really cool and ERG is an employee resource group. So we have one Black Lives Matter, we have another ERG group around LGBTQ+, we have a new ERG that we just rolled out for expecting moms. [00:24:16][40.4]

[00:24:17] Russell Evans: Yeah, I love those groups, and that perfecting that model allows you to create more and more groups as the need arises. This leads perfectly into marathon for talent. So this is one of the themes that has come up on Contributors, as we talked to CEO, is everyone is feeling the same pressure around talent retention, talent recruitment. And you know, we've come to refer to this as the marathon for talent because we think it's not a temporary measure, but it's really a permanent rebalancing. What do you see about that and what are you doing about that? [00:24:56][39.0]

[00:24:57] Ross Wainwright: I think as as a management team, we have to lead with culture and it has to be authentic. You can't fake it, right? You have to build great culture. And if you don't have good culture, you've got to fix it. And to people, employees out there that are looking, you know, we're all looking to build our career. We want to make more money. Don't make a decision unless the culture fits you, at the end of the day. You have to do what you love is my advice. And I think that intersection if companies really celebrate culture, you've got to pay a competitive buck. I get that. We do, fortunately. But if you celebrate culture, you build great culture, you hire great people, you build a great community within your company, then I think good things happen at the end of the day. The great resignation, I think they're calling it, was that was a tough and in some of the spiraling increases of salaries, some of them needed to happen. But I worry that some of those increased salaries are now part of the layoffs that we're seeing in tech right now. Fortunately, we didn't do that. We you know, we kind of kept to our knitting during the pandemic. But and we've been able to, we're a profitable company and a growth company. I think you just got to do the right things every day, put your customer in the center of what you do and wrap your employees and celebrate your employees to take the best care of your customers, and the rest will take care of itself. [00:26:18][81.5]

[00:26:20] Russell Evans: Do you see that being customer centric as a business helps with employee retention and player recruitment? Do your employees want to work for a business that's customer centric? And if so, why? [00:26:31][11.5]

[00:26:32] Ross Wainwright: It's interesting. I think three years ago when I joined the company, we were kind of an employee centric company. The customers were there, but they weren't the center. Today, the customers are the center. It didn't sacrifice employee culture. If anything, I think it lifted employee culture because it gave them purpose. And what it did, it built pride in the organization. It built pride and discipline, built a more focused and customer centric culture. It was a good thing. [00:27:00][27.8]

[00:27:01] Russell Evans: So as you know, the show is called Contributors, and one of the questions we love to ask is how is your company contributing to a better future for Canada? [00:27:09][8.4]

[00:27:10] Ross Wainwright: Well, first of all, I want to be on the bleeding edge, not just with our technology. I want to be on the bleeding edge of culture, at the end of the day. If there's a way to build a better company, I want to go try it. I want to go give it a go. You know what, what's the worst that can happen? If it doesn't work, we've got to go back. But if I don't have the courage to try, then I'm not the right leader for the business. And I think in Canada, as CEOs, we need to have the courage to get out of our paradigm, right, to challenge the paradigm, get out of our own way, and just give it a go. And I think we can surprise ourselves on the fact that we can build so many amazing world class companies in Canada that will be the envy of the world. But we've got to be progressive and we've got to have the courage to try. [00:27:57][46.8]

[00:27:58] Russell Evans: Another question that we love to ask is a question I like to call the secret sauce question. And this is a question often that is informed by research that I do. So I'll call people that I know at that company, or I'll call people who know that CEO and I'll say, What is this individual secret sauce? What is Ross's secret sauce as a leader? [00:28:15][16.8]

[00:28:16] Ross Wainwright: You know, I think, you know, I always say that it's a privilege to lead companies. You're here to serve your customer, inspire your employees. Be positive. Life is short. Have fun. If you're not having fun, don't do something else. You know, I'm an eternal, optimistic person at the end of the day. I'm competitive too. I like to win. And I think in life you don't want to take yourself too seriously. We're just selling software here. Right. There's no there's no famine. There's no, like at the end of the day, we're just trying to build a great company. And I think, if you if you're authentic, and for me, you know, just love what you do and be positive and go and inspire some amazing technology with some amazing customers in an amazing market, maybe that's a little bit about our secret sauce through the power of community, the foundation of customer experience. [00:29:10][54.3]

[00:29:12] Russell Evans: So how can our listeners learn more about Alida? [00:29:14][2.1]

[00:29:15] Ross Wainwright: So if you go to www.Alida.com, you can learn about our customers, you can learn about our career page, we are hiring, you can hear about our values, our story. You know, I think the best stories are our customers stories. Or give us a call, I'd love to hear from you. [00:29:34][18.3]

[00:29:34] Russell Evans: Thank you so much for being on the show today, Ross. [00:29:36][1.4]

[00:29:36] Ross Wainwright: It's been a pleasure, Russell. Thanks for the time. [00:29:37][1.3]

[00:29:41] Jade Towle: Very interesting conversation, Russell. What did you think? [00:29:43][2.1]

[00:29:44] Russell Evans: Yeah, I loved it. I think for me, what really, really came through loud and clear was the focus on listening. So that to me was the common thread and everything that Ross talked about, listening to customers. And I think the best example was that Canadian Tire shovel example he shared, but also listening just as intently to your employees. And that's where some of the the amazing work of those employee resource groups came out. That is where the inspiration for the four-day workweek trial that they did and just the fact that the way in which they're listening is ongoing. So it's not just kind of a one off focus group, but it's staying in touch with their employees over time. The other thing I wanted to say about listening is there's something intrinsically humble about it because it says, you know, we don't have all the answers. We need your help, we need your insights. And it says that to both customers and employees. And just as Ross said, there is power in vulnerability and a company that focuses on listening rather than talking as a company that's being vulnerable. And finally, there's something really Canadian about it. There's something really Canadian about saying, We don't have all the answers. We need your help. We need your insights. So for me, what I think about they're going to be exporting this. They've got $60 million of funds to export their business to other countries around the world. That's phenomenal. And to me, that is them sharing the best of Canada. [00:31:28][103.6]

[00:31:29] Jade Towle: Really great points, Russell. It's hard for me to follow that, actually. But what I will add and what you've made me think of listening is that what Ross had made clear is one of the key challenges employers are having is that they may be listening, but then there's this idea of survey fatigue, right. They're listening, but then they're not closing the loop. And of course, customers, clients, whoever, are wondering what's going on or what's happening to the feedback. And so they're probably likely to not share as much feedback. So I love where Ross talked about Alida's customer advisory board to really solicit some of that more qualitative feedback on what's going on. It's something we do at CAAT Pension Plan too, to ensure you're getting that high quality feedback, but also closing the loop and saying, Here's what we're doing with that feedback and here's how we've expanded our services, innovated our products and whatever else. [00:32:28][58.3]

[00:32:28] Russell Evans: That's an excellent point. I want to say, I think that survey fatigue is actually a myth. I think the fatigue is around filling out survey after survey and never hearing back what is going to change as a result of providing your feedback. I think once you do those surveys a couple of times and you don't hear back, then you start to feel like this is an empty exercise. But I think. [00:32:49][20.8]

[00:32:50] Jade Towle: Yeah. You don't trust the brand. [00:32:50][0.5]

[00:32:51] Russell Evans: Yeah, but if it feels like a conversation and it feels like a conversation in which your feedback is being actioned, that's actually quite a rewarding feedback loop. And I think that's the opposite of survey fatigue. [00:33:03][11.9]

[00:33:04] Jade Towle: Great point. [00:33:04][0.3]

[00:33:06] Russell Evans: So Jade, I think we also have some exciting news to share. Is that right? [00:33:09][2.8]

[00:33:10] Jade Towle: That is right. So we actually just launched our first e-book from Contributors episodes. It's called Lessons from the Leaders, and it features stories and wisdom from our past Contributors, guests like Victor Dodig of CIBC, Dr. Susan Black of the Conference Board of Canada, and even our very own Derek Dobson at CAAT Pension Plan. [00:33:32][21.7]

[00:33:33] Russell Evans: Fantastic. Where can our listeners find this e-book? [00:33:35][1.9]

[00:33:36] Jade Towle: We have it available on Contributorspodcast.ca and we also have it linked right in the show notes for our listeners. [00:33:43][7.0]

[00:33:45] Russell Evans: It's really good. It's really valuable insights. And thank you to you, Jade and the team for putting it together. And to our listeners, go and download it now. It will be worth your while. And in the meantime, thanks for listening and please come back for our next episode. Thank you for listening to Contributors, the podcast for Canadian leaders. We hope you'll take away some valuable insights and lessons from today's conversation. Help us reach even more listeners. Please subscribe, rate and review contributors on Apple Podcasts. If you'd like to learn more about CAAT, visit us at CAATPension.ca. [00:33:45][0.0]
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